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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 6665931" data-attributes="member: 22779">I posted this already.&nbsp; By 10th level, a Battlemaster, which is considerably more complex than a Champion, has about 7 choice points.&nbsp; Five of them are made by 6th level.&nbsp; Between 6th and 10th, what choice points does a Battlemaster have?My druid, which I'm currently playing, has at least two choice points every single level - do I switch out any spells known and what new spell known will I take every level.&nbsp; Casters are already more complex than fighters before we even get into things like sub classes.And for the umpteenth time, I want a fighter that doesn't cast spellsNote, your fighter, which you listed above, isn't a mundane fighter.&nbsp; he casts spells.&nbsp; How often does he use those spells?&nbsp; Every adventuring day?&nbsp; And the stuff that he does outside of combat, which of those abilities came from the fighter class?&nbsp; I see how his race and background grant him&nbsp; stuff, sure.&nbsp; But, then again, you could be playing any class and get the exact same stuff.&nbsp; None of it has anything to do with a fighter as a class.&nbsp; Never minding that virtually every single class can do what you do outside of combat and do it better.As far as &quot;many examples&quot; go, really?&nbsp; How do I impose a -2 AC penalty on an opponent and still deal damage?&nbsp; I don't mind if it's less damage, that's fine.&nbsp; But, how do I impose a -2 AC penalty?&nbsp; How do I shoulder throw an opponent so that he moves to another adjacent square to my fighter and lands prone?&nbsp; Where's the rules for that?&nbsp; These are pretty bog standard combat moves, yet, barring DM fiat, which we've already shown in this thread to be problematic, how can my fighter do them?What was wrong with the Fighting Schools idea I had above that used the old Oriental Adventures martial arts rules as a basis.&nbsp; You have 5 fight schools, each level of fight school has four or five stunts, and you need two stunts in any school to take a higher level stunt.&nbsp; The five schools could be:<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">School of Sword and Board - all centered around fun things you can do with a shield.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mounted combat - Fun things you can do with a horse</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">School of tactics - Fun things you can do with your friends.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">School of Awesome - I'm such a paragon of man/womanliness that people fall over themselves to help me.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">School of something else that I can't think of right now.</li>
</ul>There, done.&nbsp; I've just made a fighter that is every bit as complex as any caster, yet has no &quot;special effects&quot; powers and is nicely balanced with the system.&nbsp; So, what's the problem?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 6665931, member: 22779"] I posted this already. By 10th level, a Battlemaster, which is considerably more complex than a Champion, has about 7 choice points. Five of them are made by 6th level. Between 6th and 10th, what choice points does a Battlemaster have? My druid, which I'm currently playing, has at least two choice points every single level - do I switch out any spells known and what new spell known will I take every level. Casters are already more complex than fighters before we even get into things like sub classes. And for the umpteenth time, [size=6]I want a fighter that doesn't cast spells[/size] Note, your fighter, which you listed above, isn't a mundane fighter. he casts spells. How often does he use those spells? Every adventuring day? And the stuff that he does outside of combat, which of those abilities came from the fighter class? I see how his race and background grant him stuff, sure. But, then again, you could be playing any class and get the exact same stuff. None of it has anything to do with a fighter as a class. Never minding that virtually every single class can do what you do outside of combat and do it better. As far as "many examples" go, really? How do I impose a -2 AC penalty on an opponent and still deal damage? I don't mind if it's less damage, that's fine. But, how do I impose a -2 AC penalty? How do I shoulder throw an opponent so that he moves to another adjacent square to my fighter and lands prone? Where's the rules for that? These are pretty bog standard combat moves, yet, barring DM fiat, which we've already shown in this thread to be problematic, how can my fighter do them? What was wrong with the Fighting Schools idea I had above that used the old Oriental Adventures martial arts rules as a basis. You have 5 fight schools, each level of fight school has four or five stunts, and you need two stunts in any school to take a higher level stunt. The five schools could be: [list]School of Sword and Board - all centered around fun things you can do with a shield. [*]Mounted combat - Fun things you can do with a horse [*]School of tactics - Fun things you can do with your friends. [*]School of Awesome - I'm such a paragon of man/womanliness that people fall over themselves to help me. [*]School of something else that I can't think of right now.[/list] There, done. I've just made a fighter that is every bit as complex as any caster, yet has no "special effects" powers and is nicely balanced with the system. So, what's the problem? [/QUOTE]

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