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<blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 6667094" data-attributes="member: 6787650">Let's say you're not in a heavily melee-oriented party. That presumably means you're in a ranged-heavy party. Under those conditions the defensive advantages of Shove shine brighter than the offensive advantages. I'm not sure where you get your &quot;~25%&quot; figure because typically advantage is worth at least a 50% boost to your damage, but let's say you get a 0% boost because you're stuck shoving the guy twice before he goes down. You then retreat 30' (taking an opportunity attack in the process), and now next turn he can only move 15' and still attack. You're proactively shutting him down in a way very similar to Sentinel, and your whole ranged party gets a full round of attacks on him (minus the two attacks that you gave up to shove him prone) in exchange for the one opportunity attack at disadvantage that you took from him. Since ranged-heavy parties trade distance for damage, this trade is likely worth it even if he ignores you and tries to Dash toward your buddies at partial speed.The offensive advantages are significant but they're only half the package.But yes, this doesn't work too well unless you actually have a good Athletics score and buddies with ranged weapons. If you're working with a +7, trying to prone minotaurs with a +4, and everybody else on your team is melee-oriented... you should probably give up and just hit him. You're not in a position to meaningfully benefit from shoves, and recognizing that fact is part of tactics.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="FormerlyHemlock, post: 6667094, member: 6787650"] Let's say you're [I]not[/I] in a heavily melee-oriented party. That presumably means you're in a ranged-heavy party. Under those conditions the defensive advantages of Shove shine brighter than the offensive advantages. I'm not sure where you get your "~25%" figure because typically advantage is worth at least a 50% boost to your damage, but let's say you get a 0% boost because you're stuck shoving the guy twice before he goes down. You then retreat 30' (taking an opportunity attack in the process), and now next turn he can only move 15' and still attack. You're proactively shutting him down in a way very similar to Sentinel, and your whole ranged party gets a full round of attacks on him (minus the two attacks that you gave up to shove him prone) in exchange for the one opportunity attack at disadvantage that you took from him. Since ranged-heavy parties trade distance for damage, this trade is likely worth it even if he ignores you and tries to Dash toward your buddies at partial speed. The offensive advantages are significant but they're only half the package. But yes, this doesn't work too well unless you actually have a good Athletics score and buddies with ranged weapons. If you're working with a +7, trying to prone minotaurs with a +4, and everybody else on your team is melee-oriented... you should probably give up and just hit him. You're not in a position to meaningfully benefit from shoves, and recognizing that fact is part of tactics. [/QUOTE]

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