Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Social Pillar Mechanics: Where do you stand?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9292741" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Taking an 8-hour rest every few hours is completely unrealistic, I'm not sure how you can possibly argue otherwise.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, when the developers (Crawford in particular) have practically shouted from the rooftops that this is precisely the opposite of the intent for their design, I would say that a game that still encourages it has bad design.</p><p></p><p>The intent--with every WotC edition--is that Wizards etc. are supposed to stretch their spellcasting across numerous combats each day, rationing it out carefully. 5th edition in particular has been <em>explicitly</em> designed around this being assumed to be true. If every Wizard etc. is unloading every spell in their arsenal every single combat, they are dramatically more powerful than the designers intended them to be--and conversely, classes and subclasses designed to produce steady performance over a long time, or smaller bursts of power across multiple short rests per day, are (by Crawford's own words) being comparatively shortchanged.</p><p></p><p>And the math isn't hard to demonstrate. Competing against, say, three 3rd level spell slots, it's simply not possible for the Battle Master's 5d8 damage dice to keep up with <em>one</em> 3rd-level slot, let alone the rest of the Wizard's kit. The Champion fairs even worse; even if this is an inordinately long combat, say 8 rounds (which would be ridiculously long in 5e), and the Champion blows both uses of Action Surge, and never runs out of targets, they're getting a grand total of 8x2+2 = 18 attacks. Or...approximately <em>one</em> extra crit.</p><p></p><p>The game is very specifically designed for players to NOT play this way, and becomes broken and distorted when players DO play that way. Hence, in the specific context of 5e, it is bad design. It conflicts with the explicit statements of intent from its designers; it conflicts with the explicit assumptions that went into designing the classes; and it leads to less enjoyable experiences for everyone <em>except</em> those who play full casters, something the 5e devs (back during the Next playtest) admitted was a problem with 3e's design that needed to be addressed (which is why spellcasters have fewer spell slots, don't gain more from high stats, have to manage Concentration, and generally have few to no "fail one save and durably suck" spells.)</p><p></p><p>It's bad design.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What on earth are you talking about? There is no "ongoing resource-attrition" model. At all. That's the whole point. When the full-caster players are capable of blowing through every spell slot they possess in every single fight, <em>there is no resource attrition</em>. That's the second most important part of doing the 5MWD in the first place! It <em>removes</em> resource attrition. (The most important part, of course, is that it massively inflates caster power, while simultaneously robbing non-caster power.)</p><p></p><p>Like, you're somehow trying to make a distinction between "5MWD" and "getting to rest after every encounter." <em>Those two things are the same thing</em>. Hesperus is Phosphorus. That's why it's called the "5 minute workday." You engage in one combat--which will never be even 5 minutes, because ten rounds is sixty seconds--and then you immediately take a full long rest. Engage in one combat, immediately take a full long rest. Lather, rinse, repeat. (Of course, this is technically against the rules; it would instead be the players staying in camp and doing nothing for 15.9 hours and <em>then</em> long-resting, lather, rinse, repeat.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9292741, member: 6790260"] Taking an 8-hour rest every few hours is completely unrealistic, I'm not sure how you can possibly argue otherwise. I mean, when the developers (Crawford in particular) have practically shouted from the rooftops that this is precisely the opposite of the intent for their design, I would say that a game that still encourages it has bad design. The intent--with every WotC edition--is that Wizards etc. are supposed to stretch their spellcasting across numerous combats each day, rationing it out carefully. 5th edition in particular has been [I]explicitly[/I] designed around this being assumed to be true. If every Wizard etc. is unloading every spell in their arsenal every single combat, they are dramatically more powerful than the designers intended them to be--and conversely, classes and subclasses designed to produce steady performance over a long time, or smaller bursts of power across multiple short rests per day, are (by Crawford's own words) being comparatively shortchanged. And the math isn't hard to demonstrate. Competing against, say, three 3rd level spell slots, it's simply not possible for the Battle Master's 5d8 damage dice to keep up with [I]one[/I] 3rd-level slot, let alone the rest of the Wizard's kit. The Champion fairs even worse; even if this is an inordinately long combat, say 8 rounds (which would be ridiculously long in 5e), and the Champion blows both uses of Action Surge, and never runs out of targets, they're getting a grand total of 8x2+2 = 18 attacks. Or...approximately [I]one[/I] extra crit. The game is very specifically designed for players to NOT play this way, and becomes broken and distorted when players DO play that way. Hence, in the specific context of 5e, it is bad design. It conflicts with the explicit statements of intent from its designers; it conflicts with the explicit assumptions that went into designing the classes; and it leads to less enjoyable experiences for everyone [I]except[/I] those who play full casters, something the 5e devs (back during the Next playtest) admitted was a problem with 3e's design that needed to be addressed (which is why spellcasters have fewer spell slots, don't gain more from high stats, have to manage Concentration, and generally have few to no "fail one save and durably suck" spells.) It's bad design. What on earth are you talking about? There is no "ongoing resource-attrition" model. At all. That's the whole point. When the full-caster players are capable of blowing through every spell slot they possess in every single fight, [I]there is no resource attrition[/I]. That's the second most important part of doing the 5MWD in the first place! It [I]removes[/I] resource attrition. (The most important part, of course, is that it massively inflates caster power, while simultaneously robbing non-caster power.) Like, you're somehow trying to make a distinction between "5MWD" and "getting to rest after every encounter." [I]Those two things are the same thing[/I]. Hesperus is Phosphorus. That's why it's called the "5 minute workday." You engage in one combat--which will never be even 5 minutes, because ten rounds is sixty seconds--and then you immediately take a full long rest. Engage in one combat, immediately take a full long rest. Lather, rinse, repeat. (Of course, this is technically against the rules; it would instead be the players staying in camp and doing nothing for 15.9 hours and [I]then[/I] long-resting, lather, rinse, repeat.) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Social Pillar Mechanics: Where do you stand?
Top