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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5808831" data-attributes="member: 22779">See, I think there's a very, very fine line between sense of wonder and sense of frustration.&nbsp; Imagine a situation where there are no rolls (or the rolls are kept secret from the player, makes no difference in this situation).&nbsp; Player makes his pitch to the DM to convince the NPC of whatever.&nbsp; Now, without any input from actual rolls, he's entirely dependent on the DM's portrayal of the reaction.&nbsp; DM decides that the pitch fails - either he rolled badly, or simply used a judgement call.Now, the player is stuck.&nbsp; He doesn't really know why he failed, only that he did.&nbsp; And, actually, he might not even know that he did fail if the DM has the NPC play along anyway.&nbsp; He has no real way forward except to kind of blindly feel his way along.&nbsp; Did the guard rebuff his offer of a bribe because the guard is unbribable or did he just not offer enough money or did his performance lack something that the DM was looking for?From the player's perspective, it's very hard to tell.&nbsp; And, it can be (not necessarily will be) but can be frustrating.&nbsp; Add to that the idea that sometimes DM's will just stonewall players because they didn't like the performance and it can drag the game down very quickly.For players that insist on always maintaining immersion, where immersion is the most important goal all the time, sure, that's fine.&nbsp; They don't want to know why they failed.&nbsp; They WANT to grope around.For the rest of us though, those of us who would much, much rather just get on with the game, groping around is about as much fun as watching paint dry.It's totally a style issue.&nbsp; I get that.&nbsp; There's nothing wrong with wanting total immersion all the time.&nbsp; I don't.&nbsp; I've played that way and I just find it too frustrating repeatedly banging my head on the wall.&nbsp; To me, it smacks too much of pixelbitching.&nbsp; I realize that my style is not everyone's style though.&nbsp; For those who want that level of immersion, then hiding the rolls would likely be a good idea.&nbsp; For me, it would not be fun, on either side of the screen.&nbsp; Like I said earlier, as a DM, it makes me too visible with too much time talking to me the DM rather than interacting with what's going on in the game.&nbsp; As a player, it's too frustrating and any gains in immersion I might get would be lost very quickly.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5808831, member: 22779"] See, I think there's a very, very fine line between sense of wonder and sense of frustration. Imagine a situation where there are no rolls (or the rolls are kept secret from the player, makes no difference in this situation). Player makes his pitch to the DM to convince the NPC of whatever. Now, without any input from actual rolls, he's entirely dependent on the DM's portrayal of the reaction. DM decides that the pitch fails - either he rolled badly, or simply used a judgement call. Now, the player is stuck. He doesn't really know why he failed, only that he did. And, actually, he might not even know that he did fail if the DM has the NPC play along anyway. He has no real way forward except to kind of blindly feel his way along. Did the guard rebuff his offer of a bribe because the guard is unbribable or did he just not offer enough money or did his performance lack something that the DM was looking for? From the player's perspective, it's very hard to tell. And, it can be (not necessarily will be) but can be frustrating. Add to that the idea that sometimes DM's will just stonewall players because they didn't like the performance and it can drag the game down very quickly. For players that insist on always maintaining immersion, where immersion is the most important goal all the time, sure, that's fine. They don't want to know why they failed. They WANT to grope around. For the rest of us though, those of us who would much, much rather just get on with the game, groping around is about as much fun as watching paint dry. It's totally a style issue. I get that. There's nothing wrong with wanting total immersion all the time. I don't. I've played that way and I just find it too frustrating repeatedly banging my head on the wall. To me, it smacks too much of pixelbitching. I realize that my style is not everyone's style though. For those who want that level of immersion, then hiding the rolls would likely be a good idea. For me, it would not be fun, on either side of the screen. Like I said earlier, as a DM, it makes me too visible with too much time talking to me the DM rather than interacting with what's going on in the game. As a player, it's too frustrating and any gains in immersion I might get would be lost very quickly. [/QUOTE]

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