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Social Skills, starting to bug me.
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5813157" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>And, in such a simple situation, there really isn't much of a difference. How about a counter example:</p><p></p><p>* Three Darkmantles lurk on the ceiling of the room above the door. If the players do not specifically state that they are looking up, they will not see the Darkmantles and the creatures will gain surprise on the party if they attack.</p><p></p><p>Now, in a game where you have some sort of "Spot" skill, is this fair or not? What if the players just say, "We look around"? </p><p></p><p>Or, to take your example RogueA, what if I state that Sir Billingsley searches the room. Do I find the goblet or not?</p><p></p><p>I've seen people, on this board, seriously state that a three foot long silver rod stuck in a torch holder is hidden from the PC's and wouldn't be found unless the players specifically mentioned looking at the torch bracket. ((Example is from The Moathouse in Village of Hommlet)) </p><p></p><p>See, this is why I have such a hard time with free forming. What one person thinks is perfectly reasonable (I search the room - you find the goblet!) is unreasonble to the next person. It's not about good or bad DMing, it's about what the DM thinks is reasonable.</p><p></p><p>So, if I'm playing with a DM where I know that the stuff under the bed will only be found if I state, "I look under the bed", then my playstyle will reflect that. I'm going to piss about, spending all sorts of time, pixel bitching the room because I know that unless I say the right thing that the DM finds reasonable, I won't find whatever's hidden there.</p><p></p><p>And the same goes for free form RP'ing. I don't want to LARP thank you very much. I've done that, and it's fun, but, not what I'm interested in when I sit down to play D&D. And that's what happens, IME, when you free form social interactions - you're larping. Massive amounts of time gets spent in every interaction, simply because the player can never really know if he's exhausted all the options with a given NPC. So, the player tries, and tries, and tries again. With a mechanical resolution system, you KNOW if you succeeded or failed and can act appropriately. It gets the information into the player's hands as quickly and efficiently as possible. </p><p></p><p>Can mechanics hamper role play? Oh sure. The 3e Diplomacy table has been mentioned and I'd totally agree with that. The problem with D20 is that it lumps all non-combat into the same system, which doesn't really make a lot of sense. Climbing a wall is inherently different than talking to someone. They should use different systems. But, offloading everything onto the DM and saying, "oh, well, just talk it out" is not better, IMO. It's lazy game design and winds up causing far more friction at the table than it ever solves.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5813157, member: 22779"] And, in such a simple situation, there really isn't much of a difference. How about a counter example: * Three Darkmantles lurk on the ceiling of the room above the door. If the players do not specifically state that they are looking up, they will not see the Darkmantles and the creatures will gain surprise on the party if they attack. Now, in a game where you have some sort of "Spot" skill, is this fair or not? What if the players just say, "We look around"? Or, to take your example RogueA, what if I state that Sir Billingsley searches the room. Do I find the goblet or not? I've seen people, on this board, seriously state that a three foot long silver rod stuck in a torch holder is hidden from the PC's and wouldn't be found unless the players specifically mentioned looking at the torch bracket. ((Example is from The Moathouse in Village of Hommlet)) See, this is why I have such a hard time with free forming. What one person thinks is perfectly reasonable (I search the room - you find the goblet!) is unreasonble to the next person. It's not about good or bad DMing, it's about what the DM thinks is reasonable. So, if I'm playing with a DM where I know that the stuff under the bed will only be found if I state, "I look under the bed", then my playstyle will reflect that. I'm going to piss about, spending all sorts of time, pixel bitching the room because I know that unless I say the right thing that the DM finds reasonable, I won't find whatever's hidden there. And the same goes for free form RP'ing. I don't want to LARP thank you very much. I've done that, and it's fun, but, not what I'm interested in when I sit down to play D&D. And that's what happens, IME, when you free form social interactions - you're larping. Massive amounts of time gets spent in every interaction, simply because the player can never really know if he's exhausted all the options with a given NPC. So, the player tries, and tries, and tries again. With a mechanical resolution system, you KNOW if you succeeded or failed and can act appropriately. It gets the information into the player's hands as quickly and efficiently as possible. Can mechanics hamper role play? Oh sure. The 3e Diplomacy table has been mentioned and I'd totally agree with that. The problem with D20 is that it lumps all non-combat into the same system, which doesn't really make a lot of sense. Climbing a wall is inherently different than talking to someone. They should use different systems. But, offloading everything onto the DM and saying, "oh, well, just talk it out" is not better, IMO. It's lazy game design and winds up causing far more friction at the table than it ever solves. [/QUOTE]
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