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Social Skills, starting to bug me.
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<blockquote data-quote="Mallus" data-source="post: 5813636" data-attributes="member: 3887"><p>Right. I've come to really appreciate the way AD&D handles this. An 8 in CHA means no modifier, at all, to social reaction rolls, however it also means that PC will only have a small number of loyal hangers-on. That PC is at no disadvantage in the short-term --they can be persuasive, charming, etc.-- but over the long run, the mechanics clearly state they're not really a people-person. </p><p></p><p>This strikes me as elegant. It puts the focus where I like it --on what is said at the table, <em>right now</em>-- but still makes CHA meaningful (of course, that "meaningfulness" sorta requires henchmen to play an important part of the campaign -- which can be a drawback if they don't).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Slight tangent: there are other ways to make 2e, and even 1e work better in high heroic, epic fantasy mode, without resorting to rampart fudging or railroading, ie high stats, some of the UA options like weapon specialization, an abundance of the right magic items/spells. </p><p></p><p>I'd say the bulk of my initial experiences with AD&D & 2e were played like this. I didn't really encounter "purer", High Gygaxian D&D until I started discussing gaming on the Internet! </p><p></p><p></p><p>It sure *is* a resolution system. I'd call it an informal system, as opposed to a formal one. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Re: spotting in older D&D - there are more steps and a bit more structure, which addresses your issue. Admittedly this wasn't clear to me back in my formative gaming years in the mid-80s. </p><p></p><p>Players spend <em>time</em> to search. That's the currency. </p><p></p><p>For each unit of time spent to search an area (or part), there's a chance for a monster to wander by and (usually) attempt to eat their PCs. That's the cost. </p><p></p><p>All PCs have a low base chance to spot hidden things while searching. Some have passive search skills which reveal (certain) hidden things, like doors, which don't cost time to use.</p><p></p><p>Players are free to search specific sites in an area, which should speed the process up, reducing the cost in time. DMs are also free to screw up this rather neat mechanic, by forcing players to "pixel bitch" large areas, instead of simply "charging" them time and rolling for a random encounter.</p><p></p><p>Now I didn't like this much back in the day, mainly because "wandering monsters" offended by then-simulationist sensibilities ("where do they wandering in <em>from</em>?!"). However, from a game design perspective, it works quite well, and I've warmed to it in my middle age. </p><p></p><p>Of course, the farther you move away from the dungeon crawl paradigm, then less well it works. For investigation scenarios, I'd use another kind of plot-based "timer", or just shift the challenge from finding clues to doing something with them (I <em>believe</em> this is sorta how the GUMSHOE system works). </p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd say it's scenario/setting design which gives the GM the most meaningful control over plot. Everything else is just gravy (and hyperbole!). That said, as much as I like "player describes, GM decides" --even in 3e & 4e!-- I'm also uncomfortable with too much GM overdetermination. I freely admit I usually don't know what the most logical, consistent, dramatic, or interesting result of the PCs course of action is. So when I'm in doubt, I make up some percentages on the spot and roll the dice. </p><p></p><p>It's fast, it results in me being as surprised by the outcome as the players, and it keeps the focus on live play, as opposed to the way formal systems like 3e's tend to shift the focus to bonus-stacking and/or character building outside of the session. </p><p></p><p>edit: another thing, my experience with various kinds of free-form resolution is it frequently defaults to (simple) mechanics; roll under an ability score on a d20, etc. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. I agree -- if for no other reason than pure psychology. It's easier to be told "no" by a die roll/abstract rule system than it is to hear the same from another human being. </p><p></p><p></p><p>I've said that all along, Danny.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mallus, post: 5813636, member: 3887"] Right. I've come to really appreciate the way AD&D handles this. An 8 in CHA means no modifier, at all, to social reaction rolls, however it also means that PC will only have a small number of loyal hangers-on. That PC is at no disadvantage in the short-term --they can be persuasive, charming, etc.-- but over the long run, the mechanics clearly state they're not really a people-person. This strikes me as elegant. It puts the focus where I like it --on what is said at the table, [i]right now[/i]-- but still makes CHA meaningful (of course, that "meaningfulness" sorta requires henchmen to play an important part of the campaign -- which can be a drawback if they don't). Slight tangent: there are other ways to make 2e, and even 1e work better in high heroic, epic fantasy mode, without resorting to rampart fudging or railroading, ie high stats, some of the UA options like weapon specialization, an abundance of the right magic items/spells. I'd say the bulk of my initial experiences with AD&D & 2e were played like this. I didn't really encounter "purer", High Gygaxian D&D until I started discussing gaming on the Internet! It sure *is* a resolution system. I'd call it an informal system, as opposed to a formal one. Re: spotting in older D&D - there are more steps and a bit more structure, which addresses your issue. Admittedly this wasn't clear to me back in my formative gaming years in the mid-80s. Players spend [i]time[/i] to search. That's the currency. For each unit of time spent to search an area (or part), there's a chance for a monster to wander by and (usually) attempt to eat their PCs. That's the cost. All PCs have a low base chance to spot hidden things while searching. Some have passive search skills which reveal (certain) hidden things, like doors, which don't cost time to use. Players are free to search specific sites in an area, which should speed the process up, reducing the cost in time. DMs are also free to screw up this rather neat mechanic, by forcing players to "pixel bitch" large areas, instead of simply "charging" them time and rolling for a random encounter. Now I didn't like this much back in the day, mainly because "wandering monsters" offended by then-simulationist sensibilities ("where do they wandering in [i]from[/i]?!"). However, from a game design perspective, it works quite well, and I've warmed to it in my middle age. Of course, the farther you move away from the dungeon crawl paradigm, then less well it works. For investigation scenarios, I'd use another kind of plot-based "timer", or just shift the challenge from finding clues to doing something with them (I [i]believe[/i] this is sorta how the GUMSHOE system works). I'd say it's scenario/setting design which gives the GM the most meaningful control over plot. Everything else is just gravy (and hyperbole!). That said, as much as I like "player describes, GM decides" --even in 3e & 4e!-- I'm also uncomfortable with too much GM overdetermination. I freely admit I usually don't know what the most logical, consistent, dramatic, or interesting result of the PCs course of action is. So when I'm in doubt, I make up some percentages on the spot and roll the dice. It's fast, it results in me being as surprised by the outcome as the players, and it keeps the focus on live play, as opposed to the way formal systems like 3e's tend to shift the focus to bonus-stacking and/or character building outside of the session. edit: another thing, my experience with various kinds of free-form resolution is it frequently defaults to (simple) mechanics; roll under an ability score on a d20, etc. Yes. I agree -- if for no other reason than pure psychology. It's easier to be told "no" by a die roll/abstract rule system than it is to hear the same from another human being. I've said that all along, Danny. [/QUOTE]
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