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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ceraus" data-source="post: 4735126" data-attributes="member: 76818">So far, I've DM'd two 4E campaigns: a low-heroic "let's try 4E before it's even out" one and a low-paragon continuation of my four-year-old main campaign. Both used minions extensively and lasted for a dozen games (the latter is ongoing).At low levels, minions, whether kobold or undead, were exciting. The only possible problems I encountered were the efficiency of Cleave on zombies and the fact that at those levels, minions have a scary damage output.At mid levels (around 12), minions, whether sahuagins or human army, were... irrelevant. Players dropped them so instantly with their area powers that I had to house-rule restrict the number of targets one can hit with those (3 for burst 1, 4 for burst 2, 5 for burst 3... and still a whopping 10 for the Angelic Avenger's burst 8 Astral Wave). And even when minions survived well into the fight, their pitiful damage simply made players stop caring.As for high levels... while I haven't tested them, I think those minions are simply a waste of ink.But before trying to solve minion issues, let's identify them.(For the sake of this argument, I consider player/monster attack/defense scaling as balanced. This is not the place to discuss it and is, at worst, a general problem not specific to minions.)Damage out of touch with player HPLet's compare player HP (say that of a 13-Con Rogue that boosts his Con half the times he can) with minion damage to see what fraction of a player's HP a minion takes away on a hit. I could use extreme examples, like a 8-Con Wizard or a 20-Con Warden, but I think my point will be clear anyway.Level 1: 25 HP, 4 damage. About 1/6 of HP.Level 11: 78 HP, 6 damage. About 1/13 of HP.Level 21: 131 HP, 8 damage. About 1/16 of HP.It hurts to even look at it. If anything, minion damage should take away a slightly bigger fraction of players' HP as levels rise to compensate for increased player survivability (surges, recovery powers, death-defying abilities...). Player HP easily triples with their 10 first level-ups (except for very high-HP-starting players), but minion damage only increases by 50%, reducing their effective damage by half.Survivability out of touch with player deadlinessWhat kills a minion at level 1? Especially multi-hit powers. (Especially controllers'.)As levels pile on, bursts increase in size and many auto-hit powers rear their head. Just at level 11, the Angelic Avenger gets a burst 8 that essentially gets rid of half the minions in the battle, every battle, with little effort and no drawback. Controllers have so many auto-hit powers by Paragon that they essentially decide which minions live or die, regardless of anything else.At high levels, most classes, even if not worried about minions, will have so many multi-hit and auto-hit powers that minions might as well be free XP.Inconsistencies with automatic damageThis is not a mechanic issue as much as a huge flavor and realism probem. Why would a 3-damage glancing Cleave kill a minion but a dodged take-half-of-48-damage Meteor Storm fail to do so? Not to mention Cloud of Daggers cheese. I could go on.Fireball used to be THE minion killer.Lack of role or varietyNote that while this is only a minor problem, it is one I aim to solve anyway.Minions have little in the way of variety. They are either melee or ranged and only have the "minion" role. A Barbarian minion and Fighter minion of the same level get the same attack, damage and defenses.I want a wizard minion that can cast Scorching Burst at-will!</blockquote>

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