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<blockquote data-quote="Ceraus" data-source="post: 4735143" data-attributes="member: 76818">The complete rules, now. (Those mentioned before can be dismissed.)Minions have an HP statTheir HP is about 1/5-1/6 a Standard monster's, but values are inflated at low levels and lowered at high levels. Brutes get more and Artillery and Lurkers get less, as expected.However, all minions of a single type share HP in combat.When a minion takes damage from any source (hit, miss, auto-hit, whatever), that damage is substracted from the shared HP. If the damage taken exceeds the max HP, reduce it to equal the max HP (in the example above, 36 damage is reduced to 20, the max HP).Damage that brings HP to 0 or less kills the minion that took that damage. After resolving the death, continue by adding the minion max HP to the current (probably negative) HP.And that's it!Yeah, this does have the side effect of nerfing minion temporary HP, as it will only work for the next minion damaged. Also, the &quot;bloodied&quot; status occurs when only half the minions remain.Here is a handy table of HP values according to role and level. The exact value, for Skirmishers/Soldiers/Controllers, is 5 + level. Other roles, like Artillery and Brutes, get ± 20%. Level 0 minions are worth 20 XP.[code][B]Level&nbsp; &nbsp; Art&nbsp; &nbsp; Ski&nbsp; &nbsp; Bru[/B]0&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 61&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 72&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 83&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 104&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 115&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 126&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 137&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 148&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 169&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 1710&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 1811&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 1912&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; 2013&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 2214&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 2315&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 2416&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; 21&nbsp; &nbsp; 2517&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; 2618&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 23&nbsp; &nbsp; 2819&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 24&nbsp; &nbsp; 2920&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 25&nbsp; &nbsp; 3021&nbsp; &nbsp; 21&nbsp; &nbsp; 26&nbsp; &nbsp; 3122&nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; 27&nbsp; &nbsp; 3223&nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; 28&nbsp; &nbsp; 3424&nbsp; &nbsp; 23&nbsp; &nbsp; 29&nbsp; &nbsp; 3525&nbsp; &nbsp; 24&nbsp; &nbsp; 30&nbsp; &nbsp; 3626&nbsp; &nbsp; 25&nbsp; &nbsp; 31&nbsp; &nbsp; 3727&nbsp; &nbsp; 26&nbsp; &nbsp; 32&nbsp; &nbsp; 3828&nbsp; &nbsp; 26&nbsp; &nbsp; 33&nbsp; &nbsp; 4029&nbsp; &nbsp; 27&nbsp; &nbsp; 34&nbsp; &nbsp; 4130&nbsp; &nbsp; 28&nbsp; &nbsp; 35&nbsp; &nbsp; 4231&nbsp; &nbsp; 29&nbsp; &nbsp; 36&nbsp; &nbsp; 4332&nbsp; &nbsp; 30&nbsp; &nbsp; 37&nbsp; &nbsp; 4433&nbsp; &nbsp; 30&nbsp; &nbsp; 38&nbsp; &nbsp; 4634&nbsp; &nbsp; 31&nbsp; &nbsp; 39&nbsp; &nbsp; 4735&nbsp; &nbsp; 32&nbsp; &nbsp; 40&nbsp; &nbsp; 48[/code]Minion have varying attack, AC and HP according to roleWith minion HP, the difference between minion Brutes, Soldiers and Artillery will be readily apparent. And now that minions have a modicum of survivability, we also need to slightly lower their damage to make them balanced.I think that 4 damage is too deadly at level 1. Still, since minions drop fast and thus see their combined damage output lowered drastically in the first round, their base damage should stay reasonably high. I suggest a starting point of 2 for Soldiers, 3 for Artillery and 4 for Brutes. As levels rise and the rounding gets less drastical, Soldiers will settle at 4/5 Artillery and Brutes at 7/5, keeping things in line with what Power Attack and similar abilities indicate about attack/damage balance.Here is a list of suggested damage values according to role and level. Average minion damage is 3 + 0.6 per level, rounded down. At level 1 or 30, a minion will down a weak wizard of its level in 6 hits, but the average character will easily withstand 9 or 10.[code][B]Level&nbsp; &nbsp; Sol&nbsp; &nbsp; Art&nbsp; &nbsp; Bru[/B]0&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 41&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 52&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 53&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 64&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 75&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 86&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 97&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 108&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 109&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 1110&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1211&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 1312&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 1413&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 1514&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 1515&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 1616&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 1717&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 1818&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 1919&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 2020&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 2121&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 2122&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 2223&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 2324&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; 2425&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 2526&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 2627&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 2628&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 2729&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 2830&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 21&nbsp; &nbsp; 2931&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; 21&nbsp; &nbsp; 3032&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; 3133&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; 3134&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 23&nbsp; &nbsp; 3235&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 24&nbsp; &nbsp; 33[/code]Skirmishers with Sneak Attack should get Soldier damage without it but get half Soldier damage (rounded up) as their Sneak Attack bonus. Skirmishers and Controllers attacking at about 5 squares should get Soldier damage; same thing for Artillery attacking from more than 10 squares away. Any minion can attack in a burst 1, close or ranged; just cut its damage in half.For attack and defenses, follow the DMG guidelines: average defense is 12 + level, AC is generally 14 + level, but Soldiers have 16 and Brutes and Artillery have 12. Try keeping those AC values. Attack vs. AC is 5 + level and attacks against other defenses are 3 + level. Soldiers and Artillery get +2 to attacks, Brutes get -2.Other role-dependent considerations:<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Soldiers are not expected to be mobile, but they mark on a hit (Standard Soldiers usually get one more ability to reinforce their role).</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Skirmishers are mobile and need either an ability to represent that (Goblins' and Kobolds' racial traits are a good example) or a positional damage boost (like Sneak Attack).</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Brutes and Artillery are fine as they are, entirely defined (as minions) by their HP, defense, attack, and damage. No worries.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Controllers get powerful non-damaging effects, so they're just not recommended as minions.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lurkers could be minions, but it's hard to balance their abilities.</li>
</ul>There are aspects of combat I'm still not sure about. Minions getting &quot;bloodied&quot; when half of them remain has worked so far in my games. But do minions get saving throws? I'm tempted to say &quot;no&quot;, which would definitely be cool for the players (and require a lot less rolling). They could be granted saving throws by other abilities, though.I might have missed other potential issues... but that's what the forums are for. I'm open to criticism, but if you're already about to dismiss my house rules, please give them a try first.EDIT: Code'd the tables.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ceraus, post: 4735143, member: 76818"] The complete rules, now. (Those mentioned before can be dismissed.) [B][SIZE="4"]Minions have an HP stat[/SIZE][/B] Their HP is about 1/5-1/6 a Standard monster's, but values are inflated at low levels and lowered at high levels. Brutes get more and Artillery and Lurkers get less, as expected. However, all minions of a single type share HP in combat. When a minion takes damage from any source (hit, miss, auto-hit, whatever), that damage is substracted from the shared HP. If the damage taken exceeds the max HP, reduce it to equal the max HP (in the example above, 36 damage is reduced to 20, the max HP). Damage that brings HP to 0 or less kills the minion that took that damage. After resolving the death, continue by adding the minion max HP to the current (probably negative) HP. And that's it! Yeah, this does have the side effect of nerfing minion temporary HP, as it will only work for the next minion damaged. Also, the "bloodied" status occurs when only half the minions remain. Here is a handy table of HP values according to role and level. The exact value, for Skirmishers/Soldiers/Controllers, is 5 + level. Other roles, like Artillery and Brutes, get ± 20%. Level 0 minions are worth 20 XP. [code][B]Level Art Ski Bru[/B] 0 4 5 6 1 5 6 7 2 6 7 8 3 6 8 10 4 7 9 11 5 8 10 12 6 9 11 13 7 10 12 14 8 10 13 16 9 11 14 17 10 12 15 18 11 13 16 19 12 14 17 20 13 14 18 22 14 15 19 23 15 16 20 24 16 17 21 25 17 18 22 26 18 18 23 28 19 19 24 29 20 20 25 30 21 21 26 31 22 22 27 32 23 22 28 34 24 23 29 35 25 24 30 36 26 25 31 37 27 26 32 38 28 26 33 40 29 27 34 41 30 28 35 42 31 29 36 43 32 30 37 44 33 30 38 46 34 31 39 47 35 32 40 48[/code] [B][SIZE="4"]Minion have varying attack, AC and HP according to role[/SIZE][/B] With minion HP, the difference between minion Brutes, Soldiers and Artillery will be readily apparent. And now that minions have a modicum of survivability, we also need to slightly lower their damage to make them balanced. I think that 4 damage is too deadly at level 1. Still, since minions drop fast and thus see their combined damage output lowered drastically in the first round, their base damage should stay reasonably high. I suggest a starting point of 2 for Soldiers, 3 for Artillery and 4 for Brutes. As levels rise and the rounding gets less drastical, Soldiers will settle at 4/5 Artillery and Brutes at 7/5, keeping things in line with what Power Attack and similar abilities indicate about attack/damage balance. Here is a list of suggested damage values according to role and level. Average minion damage is 3 + 0.6 per level, rounded down. At level 1 or 30, a minion will down a weak wizard of its level in 6 hits, but the average character will easily withstand 9 or 10. [code][B]Level Sol Art Bru[/B] 0 2 3 4 1 2 3 5 2 3 4 5 3 3 4 6 4 4 5 7 5 4 6 8 6 5 6 9 7 5 7 10 8 6 7 10 9 6 8 11 10 7 9 12 11 7 9 13 12 8 10 14 13 8 10 15 14 9 11 15 15 9 12 16 16 10 12 17 17 10 13 18 18 11 13 19 19 11 14 20 20 12 15 21 21 12 15 21 22 12 16 22 23 13 16 23 24 13 17 24 25 14 18 25 26 14 18 26 27 15 19 26 28 15 19 27 29 16 20 28 30 16 21 29 31 17 21 30 32 17 22 31 33 18 22 31 34 18 23 32 35 19 24 33[/code] Skirmishers with Sneak Attack should get Soldier damage without it but get half Soldier damage (rounded up) as their Sneak Attack bonus. Skirmishers and Controllers attacking at about 5 squares should get Soldier damage; same thing for Artillery attacking from more than 10 squares away. Any minion can attack in a burst 1, close or ranged; just cut its damage in half. For attack and defenses, follow the DMG guidelines: average defense is 12 + level, AC is generally 14 + level, but Soldiers have 16 and Brutes and Artillery have 12. Try keeping those AC values. Attack vs. AC is 5 + level and attacks against other defenses are 3 + level. Soldiers and Artillery get +2 to attacks, Brutes get -2. Other role-dependent considerations: [LIST] [*]Soldiers are not expected to be mobile, but they mark on a hit (Standard Soldiers usually get one more ability to reinforce their role). [*]Skirmishers are mobile and need either an ability to represent that (Goblins' and Kobolds' racial traits are a good example) or a positional damage boost (like Sneak Attack). [*]Brutes and Artillery are fine as they are, entirely defined (as minions) by their HP, defense, attack, and damage. No worries. [*]Controllers get powerful non-damaging effects, so they're just not recommended as minions. [*]Lurkers could be minions, but it's hard to balance their abilities. [/LIST] There are aspects of combat I'm still not sure about. Minions getting "bloodied" when half of them remain has worked so far in my games. But do minions get saving throws? I'm tempted to say "no", which would definitely be cool for the players (and require a lot less rolling). They could be granted saving throws by other abilities, though. I might have missed other potential issues... but that's what the forums are for. I'm open to criticism, but if you're already about to dismiss my house rules, please give them a try first. EDIT: Code'd the tables. [/QUOTE]

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