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<blockquote data-quote="shadow" data-source="post: 3728620" data-attributes="member: 2182">Yes this is exactly the thing I'm talking about.&nbsp; I've seen similar things happen before.&nbsp; While I like the idea of abstraction, trying to combine AoOs with an abstract combat system doesn't always seem to work.&nbsp;I know that a lot of people think there is some contradiction between me longing for a return of facing, and the idea that miniatures should be optional, but I don't think that facing rules necessarily require miniatures.&nbsp; In 2e I used facing rules, but rarely used miniatures.&nbsp; Let me clarify - although non-miniature combat is abstracted, a character sneaking up on a fighter who is actively engaged with an orc should be able to do a lot of damage with a sword to the back. (Yes there are flanking rules and &quot;sneak-attack damage&quot;, but only rogues get the bonus to damage.&nbsp; On higher levels a mere +2 to hit doesn't seem like much of an advantage to non-rogue characters, especially when there is no damage bonus.&nbsp; High level characters rarely have to worry about getting hit from behind.)Also, it seems weird to me that using a full attack a high level fighter can hit four different targets in four different directions.&nbsp; (i.e. hit one target at full BAB, swivel around 180 degrees and hit a target in the complete opposite direction for the second highest BAB, etc.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="shadow, post: 3728620, member: 2182"] Yes this is exactly the thing I'm talking about. I've seen similar things happen before. While I like the idea of abstraction, trying to combine AoOs with an abstract combat system doesn't always seem to work. I know that a lot of people think there is some contradiction between me longing for a return of facing, and the idea that miniatures should be optional, but I don't think that facing rules necessarily require miniatures. In 2e I used facing rules, but rarely used miniatures. Let me clarify - although non-miniature combat is abstracted, a character sneaking up on a fighter who is actively engaged with an orc should be able to do a lot of damage with a sword to the back. (Yes there are flanking rules and "sneak-attack damage", but only rogues get the bonus to damage. On higher levels a mere +2 to hit doesn't seem like much of an advantage to non-rogue characters, especially when there is no damage bonus. High level characters rarely have to worry about getting hit from behind.) Also, it seems weird to me that using a full attack a high level fighter can hit four different targets in four different directions. (i.e. hit one target at full BAB, swivel around 180 degrees and hit a target in the complete opposite direction for the second highest BAB, etc.) [/QUOTE]

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