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<blockquote data-quote="Stormborn" data-source="post: 3325896" data-attributes="member: 14041">Are the Players who are, in your opinion,making suboptimal choices having fun?&nbsp; To me thats not clear from the original post.&nbsp; If so then the only problem here is your reaction to that and you need to work on that personally by remiding yourself that its just a game and that there is no right or wrong way to play it.&nbsp; If you and other members of your group cant do that then it sound like you have enough for two different groups.If on the other hand, their inability to make characters that contribute equally with the ones you make reduces their enjoyment of the game there are some options:1) Have the GM make up some PCs that are suitable for the campaign along with two or three suggestions on how to progress, depending on what they want to do, from that point.&nbsp; Not everyone has to use these, and they are welcome to come up with them on their own, but these are available as more &quot;optimized&quot; characters.2) As another poster suggested have the players make a concept/background and then work with another player or the GM to create the mechanics to go along with it.3) Have a Table Player's Guide.&nbsp; Essentialy take the concept from the back of the PHB2 that you didnt like and make it useful for your group using the allowed books.&nbsp; You can do this one of two ways.&nbsp; You can do just as it is, by class, which is useful for single class PCs, or you can do it by archtype.&nbsp; As in &quot;here are two archer builds, here are two con man builds, here are two holy warrior builds, here are two X, Y, Z builds&quot;.&nbsp; Have the whole group get together to talk about the kinds of archtypes that fit best into your games (no need to make one for the Courtier if you dont run intrigue games, for example) then parcel out the work to whomever wants it.&nbsp; Come back and review until you have a final document you like that has at least two paths for about a dozen archtypes.&nbsp; No more restricting than the classes as they are.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Stormborn, post: 3325896, member: 14041"] Are the Players who are, in your opinion,making suboptimal choices having fun? To me thats not clear from the original post. If so then the only problem here is your reaction to that and you need to work on that personally by remiding yourself that its just a game and that there is no right or wrong way to play it. If you and other members of your group cant do that then it sound like you have enough for two different groups. If on the other hand, their inability to make characters that contribute equally with the ones you make reduces their enjoyment of the game there are some options: 1) Have the GM make up some PCs that are suitable for the campaign along with two or three suggestions on how to progress, depending on what they want to do, from that point. Not everyone has to use these, and they are welcome to come up with them on their own, but these are available as more "optimized" characters. 2) As another poster suggested have the players make a concept/background and then work with another player or the GM to create the mechanics to go along with it. 3) Have a Table Player's Guide. Essentialy take the concept from the back of the PHB2 that you didnt like and make it useful for your group using the allowed books. You can do this one of two ways. You can do just as it is, by class, which is useful for single class PCs, or you can do it by archtype. As in "here are two archer builds, here are two con man builds, here are two holy warrior builds, here are two X, Y, Z builds". Have the whole group get together to talk about the kinds of archtypes that fit best into your games (no need to make one for the Courtier if you dont run intrigue games, for example) then parcel out the work to whomever wants it. Come back and review until you have a final document you like that has at least two paths for about a dozen archtypes. No more restricting than the classes as they are. [/QUOTE]

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