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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5645822" data-attributes="member: 82106">Yeah, it can be a hot topic of debate. I would say that basically not all of the conditions were really intended to be used on their own. For instance helpless and restrained can go together pretty nicely to create "you are completely tied up and can't do a thing" or it works with unconscious pretty well. It isn't really very useful on its own, but more as a way to get rid of duplicating a whole lot of rules in multiple places. Honestly I think the lack of facing in 4e is no more or less realistic than what existed in previous editions. Outside of combat the DM can let you sneak up on someone that isn't looking in your direction. In combat/against a really alert enemy it seems like it would be pretty hard to do in any case. There are actually a fairly significant number of ways you can achieve it though. Most rogues can pull off darting out of concealment and hammering an enemy with CA (and thus SA) without much trouble. Many of them can manage to disappear in plain sight or with the barest amount of help (dim light for instance). And remember, the rules really are there to give you A way of dealing with various situations. If the default rule seems inappropriate then the DM certainly can do something different in that situation or hand out a modifier, etc. If it seems like the way a power's mechanics work produces a silly result in a given situation you can always have something different happen in that one instance, though with some imagination you can usually visualize most things in some reasonable fashion. Sometimes even retconning things a small amount will work well. The orc goes off to the left, and the bard pulls him back to the right, did he really ever go left at all? Or did the bard just mock him and piss him off so he went the other way to start with? Some things also seem odd within the context of turn-by-turn mechanical resolution of combat, but if you take a little step back and realize that the fight isn't REALLY made up of turns then things seem more natural. The prone orc that gets pulled up next to the fighter with Come and Get It was already staggering back to his feet (IE on the orc's next turn it would stand up). 99% percent of the time things will make sense that way, and the other 1% you can just say "well, the unconscious orc on the other side of the pit simply doesn't get affected by CaGI in this situation." It won't come up too often.</blockquote>

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