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<blockquote data-quote="Lord Pendragon" data-source="post: 1969769" data-attributes="member: 707">If that someone is a PC, then yes.&nbsp; The person with the -2 Sense Motive can choose to RP his character as being oblivious.&nbsp; Or he can choose to RP his PC having a sudden burst of inspiration and thus realizing he's being lied to.&nbsp; The choice lies with the player.If the someone is an NPC, then no.&nbsp; The person with the -2 Sense Motive will almost always get the impression the speaker wants him to have.&nbsp; Trustworthy.&nbsp; Honest.&nbsp; Not hiding anything.&nbsp; etc.&nbsp; The PC with the +30 Sense Motive will get a sense that something isn't quite kosher.It makes perfect sense.&nbsp; The social skills are a shorthand, a way for the DM to adjudicate countless NPCs whose motives and personality foibles he won't always have mapped out to the finest detail.&nbsp; Social skills allow the DM to determine with a dice roll how an NPC will react to the PC.&nbsp; On the other side of it, a single player is assumed to know his PC best.&nbsp; The player doesn't need a die roll to tell if his PC would be taken in by a certain type of con, is easily pursuaded, or can be intimidated by a big fighter flexing his muscles.&nbsp; Moreover, this is a game, not a simulation, and even though it might be more believable for a low wisdom character to be taken advantage of every single time the bard talks with him, it's also recognized that this isn't always so fun for the player of the low wisdom character.&nbsp; Particularly if the player of the bard is a bastard.As to &quot;why take ranks in Sense Motive&quot;, it should be obvious.&nbsp; To interact with NPCs at an advantage.&nbsp; In my experience, a very significant portion of times a PC will want to Sense Motive, it's vs. an NPC anyway.&nbsp; And Sense Motive works simply and appreciably against NPCs.&nbsp; It simply does not provide the same benefit vs. PCs, because it's more fun for a player to decide his character's personality (including the flaws), than it is for him to be subject to another player that chose to max out Diplomacy and Intimidate.If you take a moment to work out the bonuses, it becomes clear that at mid-levels (say, 12th+) a social PC (rogue, bard, possibly paladin), can achieve such a high bonus that, were social skills to function the same way vs. PCs that they do vs. NPCs, such social characters would effectively rule the game.&nbsp; The fighter could never say no to anything the bard suggested.&nbsp; The cleric could never decide to stand up to the little halfling rogue with the +30 to Intimidate.It may be that you and your players would enjoy such a game.&nbsp; Me and mine would most certainly not.&nbsp; Therefore, I rule the way I do, extrapolating from a clear rule (Diplomacy doesn't work against PCs,) to a few other skills where the rule isn't so clear.&nbsp; I haven't had any problems with it so far.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lord Pendragon, post: 1969769, member: 707"] If that someone is a PC, then yes. The person with the -2 Sense Motive can choose to RP his character as being oblivious. Or he can choose to RP his PC having a sudden burst of inspiration and thus realizing he's being lied to. The choice lies with the player. If the someone is an NPC, then no. The person with the -2 Sense Motive will almost always get the impression the speaker wants him to have. Trustworthy. Honest. Not hiding anything. etc. The PC with the +30 Sense Motive will get a sense that something isn't quite kosher.It makes perfect sense. The social skills are a shorthand, a way for the DM to adjudicate countless NPCs whose motives and personality foibles he won't always have mapped out to the finest detail. Social skills allow the DM to determine with a dice roll how an NPC will react to the PC. On the other side of it, a single player is assumed to know his PC best. The player doesn't need a die roll to tell if his PC would be taken in by a certain type of con, is easily pursuaded, or can be intimidated by a big fighter flexing his muscles. Moreover, this is a game, not a simulation, and even though it might be more believable for a low wisdom character to be taken advantage of [i]every single time the bard talks with him[/i], it's also recognized that this isn't always so fun for the player of the low wisdom character. Particularly if the player of the bard is a bastard. As to "why take ranks in Sense Motive", it should be obvious. To interact with NPCs at an advantage. In my experience, a very significant portion of times a PC will want to Sense Motive, it's vs. an NPC anyway. And Sense Motive works simply and appreciably against NPCs. It simply does not provide the same benefit vs. PCs, because it's more fun for a player to decide his character's personality (including the flaws), than it is for him to be subject to another player that chose to max out Diplomacy and Intimidate. If you take a moment to work out the bonuses, it becomes clear that at mid-levels (say, 12th+) a social PC (rogue, bard, possibly paladin), can achieve such a high bonus that, were social skills to function the same way vs. PCs that they do vs. NPCs, such social characters would effectively rule the game. The fighter could never say no to anything the bard suggested. The cleric could never decide to stand up to the little halfling rogue with the +30 to Intimidate. It may be that you and your players would enjoy such a game. Me and mine would most certainly not. Therefore, I rule the way I do, extrapolating from a clear rule (Diplomacy doesn't work against PCs,) to a few other skills where the rule isn't so clear. I haven't had any problems with it so far. [/QUOTE]

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