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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Some spells _really_ powerful?
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<blockquote data-quote="Alessandro Guarita" data-source="post: 6370727" data-attributes="member: 6777196"><p>About the 8d6 fireball damage. Yes, it *seems* a lot on a first glance. As a lot of posters mentioned: the wizard is burning his precious slots doing it.</p><p>But there are some other points to consider:</p><p></p><p></p><p>1. The fireball is a area damage spell. This make it powerful (since it hits a lot of enemies) and problematic for the caster, specially if he lost his initiative, since he can hit some friends on the way (unless you are playing a Evoker). So, you don't have aways the chance to use it. Also remember: the fireball are a 20-foot RADIUS sphere. It means that in a room of less than 40 ft. of each side it will hit the enemies, the caster's friends and the caster. It's only safe if the casters is a evoker and it's a 4 member party. It's not very easy to make safe use in a dungeon.</p><p></p><p></p><p>2. The fireball does fire damage. And fire resistance is pretty common (at least it was on 3rd edition... it can be different on 5th edition MM). It is so common that 1 PHB race come with it (tiefling) and another one can, potentially have it also (dragonborn). Of course this also can benefits the party (if the warrior has fire damage resistance, the wizard/sorcerer/whatever can cast a fireball with less worry).</p><p></p><p></p><p>3. You are considering only a fight between PCs and NPCs built with PC rules. It's not the case. The most traditional fight is between PC and Monster. Even a NPC is build in a different way (check the NPCs on Hoard of the Dragon Queen free PDF and the Basic DM and you'll see a lot of differences). Browsing the Basic DM and using the "Challenge 5" keyword I noticed that the monster with this CR has a 90 ~ 120 hp. A fireball cast by a 5th level caster does, 28 damage on average, 48 on a very very luck roll with 6 on all dice. And more, take a look on the NPCs on that file. You'll see a CR 2 Berserker with 67 hp!!! There is no PC that can reach that amount of hp. Even a CR 1/8, 1/4 NPC has more than one hit dice (but it does have an average hp like a level 1 PC). And, look again: 67 hp for a level 2 NPC. Even a fireball cast by a level 5 wizard with MAX damage can't kill him!!!</p><p></p><p></p><p>4. Now, remember another thing: the wizard and sorcerer have, both of then, low hp and AC. They are easy prey for NPCs and they can focus on take him down first. Put this on your game and the things will be very, very different. A lot of fights isn't only melee fights. A lot of monsters have ranged attack and also have the NPCs. Even the melee NPC can try to reach the party caster. This put a pressure on it, making him spend precious slot and action to protect himself. For a caster be so powerful, he needs the protect of a fighter and, eventually, the healing of a cleric. Otherwise he'll be the most powerful PC on the grave.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The hp consideration on my post (the 3rd one), by the way, is true for a lot of arguments of this topic about damage. You can't compare PC and NPC on this edition. The HP is the main source of resistance, now, thanks to bounded accuracy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Alessandro Guarita, post: 6370727, member: 6777196"] About the 8d6 fireball damage. Yes, it *seems* a lot on a first glance. As a lot of posters mentioned: the wizard is burning his precious slots doing it. But there are some other points to consider: 1. The fireball is a area damage spell. This make it powerful (since it hits a lot of enemies) and problematic for the caster, specially if he lost his initiative, since he can hit some friends on the way (unless you are playing a Evoker). So, you don't have aways the chance to use it. Also remember: the fireball are a 20-foot RADIUS sphere. It means that in a room of less than 40 ft. of each side it will hit the enemies, the caster's friends and the caster. It's only safe if the casters is a evoker and it's a 4 member party. It's not very easy to make safe use in a dungeon. 2. The fireball does fire damage. And fire resistance is pretty common (at least it was on 3rd edition... it can be different on 5th edition MM). It is so common that 1 PHB race come with it (tiefling) and another one can, potentially have it also (dragonborn). Of course this also can benefits the party (if the warrior has fire damage resistance, the wizard/sorcerer/whatever can cast a fireball with less worry). 3. You are considering only a fight between PCs and NPCs built with PC rules. It's not the case. The most traditional fight is between PC and Monster. Even a NPC is build in a different way (check the NPCs on Hoard of the Dragon Queen free PDF and the Basic DM and you'll see a lot of differences). Browsing the Basic DM and using the "Challenge 5" keyword I noticed that the monster with this CR has a 90 ~ 120 hp. A fireball cast by a 5th level caster does, 28 damage on average, 48 on a very very luck roll with 6 on all dice. And more, take a look on the NPCs on that file. You'll see a CR 2 Berserker with 67 hp!!! There is no PC that can reach that amount of hp. Even a CR 1/8, 1/4 NPC has more than one hit dice (but it does have an average hp like a level 1 PC). And, look again: 67 hp for a level 2 NPC. Even a fireball cast by a level 5 wizard with MAX damage can't kill him!!! 4. Now, remember another thing: the wizard and sorcerer have, both of then, low hp and AC. They are easy prey for NPCs and they can focus on take him down first. Put this on your game and the things will be very, very different. A lot of fights isn't only melee fights. A lot of monsters have ranged attack and also have the NPCs. Even the melee NPC can try to reach the party caster. This put a pressure on it, making him spend precious slot and action to protect himself. For a caster be so powerful, he needs the protect of a fighter and, eventually, the healing of a cleric. Otherwise he'll be the most powerful PC on the grave. The hp consideration on my post (the 3rd one), by the way, is true for a lot of arguments of this topic about damage. You can't compare PC and NPC on this edition. The HP is the main source of resistance, now, thanks to bounded accuracy. [/QUOTE]
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