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Message: <blockquote data-quote="painandgreed" data-source="post: 2431372" data-attributes="member: 24969">Sounds like there is plenty of cushion between players and CR 20+ BBEG. Some undead, a few warped treants, a few encounters later as they start to scale up, they should be thinking bout how to get out rather than how to get to the center. Let them try and fail. they should be better for the expereince and perhaps they can even pull it off or come closer than you give them credit.I remember once, my 1E party was about 10th level which was really high for the campaign world and we decided to take on an underground orc lair despite DM warnings. We got close and started to fight orcs and more orcs arrived. Much later, we'd killed hundreds of orcs including many with levels of fighter. We were surrounded by hundred more protected by soem walls of fire that were running out of time. Our spells were running out, hit points low, and while doing ok, we were wondering if we could even fight our way out of the spot we had gotten ourselves into. We finally decided to use one of our two remaining wishes in a ring to get us out of there. it was a humbling but very rewarding (both RP and XP wise) experience and we never even got to the entrance of the complex we thought we could take on. it really helped us to put the world into presepctive and we didn't even fight anything above 6HD.</blockquote>