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Some things I don't care for in the D&D culture
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<blockquote data-quote="Big J Money" data-source="post: 6651958" data-attributes="member: 70533"><p>Thanks for all the thoughts, people!</p><p></p><p>Morrus, I would say you're correct from a practical standpoint. I never set out to say "I like rules-light games", but also I don't garner any benefit from having more rules. But there are two specific distinctions to 3E rules that are far more important to me than the "amount" of rules. Those would be the style of rules (hardcoded character behavior) and the amount of character options (extreme). Both things kill an important part of my imagination for some reason. 4E was the extreme in this regard. If I want to let this part of my imagination rest, I'll play a videogame or boardgame. Otherwise I want to exercise it, and that's one of my main purposes for playing a pen and paper RPG.</p><p></p><p>Regarding character builds, it's actually not the min-maxing that bothers me per se. That's simply playing 3E/4E as designed. What bothers me more is the amount of time spent on character creation, and the punishment that can happen to players who don't min-max. Again, if I want to spend time studying or poring over RPG character options, I have video games for that. I actually do enjoy this, just not when I want to roleplay. And this is purely a preference, of course.</p><p></p><p>MoonSong, you pointed out something very interesting. I'm reminded of something that turned me off of the old d20 Star Wars RPG many years ago. I created a bounty hunter Rodian and he was terrible. Even though in Star Wars fiction, Rodians were supposed to be skilled hunters, the system required me to make a Trandoshan to be most effective. I was pissed about that! So I think what bothers me about balance isn't necessarily when a game is well-balanced, but when the rules are designed in such a way as to turn it into an issue. In original D&D you can't compare the fighting man and the magic user for balance because they were asymmetrically designed. That game design avoids balance entirely. I guess this isn't so much a cultural thing as a rules thing, then.</p><p></p><p>Edit: Wow, I just read some of the Stealth thread and I can see what someone meant by 5E can "make rules lawyering worse" for some people. Yes, this is what I meant by rules-lawyering being a cultural thing. I used to be one. But now I've decided that I would rather rule in favor of common sense and plausibility of fiction (according to the concensus at the table) than to try and parse the rules as a legal document. It's a matter of personal priority. Mine is not to "play the game as correct, according to the verbage in the legal-game-document", but to try to use the rules as a guide to let everyone at the table have fun. This is an example of the rules-lawyer culture that I prefer to avoid, certainly. FWIW, I think interpreted the rules perfectly is a sacred cow. Unless you're playing MtG, and then it makes sense.</p><p></p><p>So it sounds like there's evidence that I could find a 5E group that has similar tastes as me. Bacon Bits, what you point out is my biggest concern of course, that these folks may be quite difficult to find.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Big J Money, post: 6651958, member: 70533"] Thanks for all the thoughts, people! Morrus, I would say you're correct from a practical standpoint. I never set out to say "I like rules-light games", but also I don't garner any benefit from having more rules. But there are two specific distinctions to 3E rules that are far more important to me than the "amount" of rules. Those would be the style of rules (hardcoded character behavior) and the amount of character options (extreme). Both things kill an important part of my imagination for some reason. 4E was the extreme in this regard. If I want to let this part of my imagination rest, I'll play a videogame or boardgame. Otherwise I want to exercise it, and that's one of my main purposes for playing a pen and paper RPG. Regarding character builds, it's actually not the min-maxing that bothers me per se. That's simply playing 3E/4E as designed. What bothers me more is the amount of time spent on character creation, and the punishment that can happen to players who don't min-max. Again, if I want to spend time studying or poring over RPG character options, I have video games for that. I actually do enjoy this, just not when I want to roleplay. And this is purely a preference, of course. MoonSong, you pointed out something very interesting. I'm reminded of something that turned me off of the old d20 Star Wars RPG many years ago. I created a bounty hunter Rodian and he was terrible. Even though in Star Wars fiction, Rodians were supposed to be skilled hunters, the system required me to make a Trandoshan to be most effective. I was pissed about that! So I think what bothers me about balance isn't necessarily when a game is well-balanced, but when the rules are designed in such a way as to turn it into an issue. In original D&D you can't compare the fighting man and the magic user for balance because they were asymmetrically designed. That game design avoids balance entirely. I guess this isn't so much a cultural thing as a rules thing, then. Edit: Wow, I just read some of the Stealth thread and I can see what someone meant by 5E can "make rules lawyering worse" for some people. Yes, this is what I meant by rules-lawyering being a cultural thing. I used to be one. But now I've decided that I would rather rule in favor of common sense and plausibility of fiction (according to the concensus at the table) than to try and parse the rules as a legal document. It's a matter of personal priority. Mine is not to "play the game as correct, according to the verbage in the legal-game-document", but to try to use the rules as a guide to let everyone at the table have fun. This is an example of the rules-lawyer culture that I prefer to avoid, certainly. FWIW, I think interpreted the rules perfectly is a sacred cow. Unless you're playing MtG, and then it makes sense. So it sounds like there's evidence that I could find a 5E group that has similar tastes as me. Bacon Bits, what you point out is my biggest concern of course, that these folks may be quite difficult to find. [/QUOTE]
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