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Some thoughts after more time with the game...
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<blockquote data-quote="Argyle King" data-source="post: 6719555" data-attributes="member: 58416"><p>It's been a little while now since I first started playing 5th Edition. As such, I felt like it was a good idea to re-evaluate some of my old opinions, and also to reach out to the community and get some feedback on a few issues which have come up during play.</p><p></p><p>The first thing that comes to mind when I sit and give further thought to the experience I've gained is that monster AC values seem extremely low. The campaign I'm currently in has just reached level 8, and there are times when most of the party is capable of hitting with single-digit rolls. I don't think that by itself is necessarily bad, but it does sometimes seem odd when compared to the difficult that the party's adversaries have when it comes to hitting some of the party. Now that we're gaining more magic items, this disparity is beginning to quickly grow.</p><p></p><p>A brief example: The party barbarian is currently rolling +9 to hit (5 from maxed out strength; 3 from proficiency; +1 from a magic weapon.) Most of the enemies we face seem to have AC ranging from 12-15. So that means, the barbarian is, in some cases, relying on rolling a 3 to hit; sometimes needing a 6 against a tougher foe. If he has advantage, rolling tends to be little more than a formality.</p><p></p><p>In contrast, my character has 19 AC. I'm wearing full plate, and I have the defensive fighting style (I'm a multiclass fighter/wizard.) I didn't have any magic items at the time I started typing this, but I was just now informed that the party gained some magic items from the most recent loot. From the brief details I was given, I'm guessing my AC will jump somewhere into the 20s from magic plate and a ring of protection.</p><p></p><p>While there are times when combat does still feel dangerous, there are also times when the contrast between what the DM is needing to roll versus what the players are needing to roll seems a bit odd. I think I still need a closer look at the numbers before gauging if this is even a problem at all. If nothing else, it has created a weird sense of 5E combat. Some encounters will be unbelievably lopsided in favor of the players; others will drop a PC early and easily, but it's typically one or the other with little room in between. I don't have a solid grasp of what (if anything) that means yet, but it then leads to noticing other things...</p><p></p><p>One of those other things is that +N items still seem to be a problem. I love the idea of bounded accuracy, but I am unsure if adding extra boosts of a strictly numerical value risks making the game unbalanced in some situations. Looking back at my own character, I notice that my AC will be 20-something; on top of that, I can cast Shield and make myself harder to hit. Is that atypical or normal for the game? Thinking upon it further, I realize that I put most of that together by accident; I was simply trying to recreate my Skyrim character who was a heavily armored necromancer.</p><p></p><p>It very likely could be that the group I'm in is doing something wrong with the stacking rules. Does a cloak of protection stack with a ring of protection? Does all of that stack with magic armor?</p><p></p><p>Another thing I've noticed is that, with the AC of enemies being so low, ranged attacks seem to be much better than engaging in melee. While melee based classes can produce large quantities of damage via multiple attacks, the same thing can be done by arming my skeletal minions with crossbows and having them focus fire, and I can cover most of the battlefield that way rather than only the space right in front of me. I'm also starting to notice that spells such as Witch Bolt cast at higher spell slots reliably hit for a relatively high amount of damage; at range, and with continuing effects. Again, I'm not sure there's even a real problem there; I'm not even suggesting there necessarily is; just an observation of how the game I'm currently in seems to play out.</p><p></p><p>Speaking of spells, there have also been a few situations which have come up that I'd like to get outside opinions on. The polymorph spell is on the verge of becoming a powerful weapon in our campaign, but in a somewhat unusual way. With the way the spell is worded, a creature reverts back to their normal form if their morphed form is killed. During part of the campaign, a creature had been polymorphed into a small animal and then fed to one of their allies. Eating the polymorphed creature caused it to be killed and revert back to normal form inside of the other creature; which then caused the eating creature to explode/be ripped apart. This has opened up talk of other ideas such as the party using polymorph on themselves and crawling inside of a foe for insta-kills. I'd be interested to get outside opinions on this situation. </p><p></p><p>Also, when it comes to spells and multiclassing, how is a multiclass cleric praying for spells supposed to work? It appears as though someone could be a level 1 cleric and have 19 levels in a different spellcasting class, but still pray for spells for any level he has spell slots for -which would be all of them. While you'd have less cleric spells per day that you could prepare, you could just pick whatever you feel is best and still greatly boost the power of a character overall. For example, a cleric/wizard could use their handful of cleric spells per day to choose healing spells or something else lacking from their typical list. Is that how it's supposed to work? I don't feel that's necessarily broken; you're still limited by the number of spell slots and how many spells you can prepare per day per class, but it seems like a net gain for very little sacrifice. </p><p></p><p>So, in closing... </p><p></p><p>Is AC intentionally that low? If so, does giving a creature better armor significantly change the assumptions of the game or the challenge of an encounter?</p><p></p><p>Does giving a lot of magic items to the party unbalance the game? </p><p></p><p>Are there particular items which you've noticed are problematic?</p><p></p><p>Does Polymorph Salad work as a tactic? What are you're thoughts on that situation, and how might you handle it differently?</p><p></p><p>Any other thoughts or opinions are welcome</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Argyle King, post: 6719555, member: 58416"] It's been a little while now since I first started playing 5th Edition. As such, I felt like it was a good idea to re-evaluate some of my old opinions, and also to reach out to the community and get some feedback on a few issues which have come up during play. The first thing that comes to mind when I sit and give further thought to the experience I've gained is that monster AC values seem extremely low. The campaign I'm currently in has just reached level 8, and there are times when most of the party is capable of hitting with single-digit rolls. I don't think that by itself is necessarily bad, but it does sometimes seem odd when compared to the difficult that the party's adversaries have when it comes to hitting some of the party. Now that we're gaining more magic items, this disparity is beginning to quickly grow. A brief example: The party barbarian is currently rolling +9 to hit (5 from maxed out strength; 3 from proficiency; +1 from a magic weapon.) Most of the enemies we face seem to have AC ranging from 12-15. So that means, the barbarian is, in some cases, relying on rolling a 3 to hit; sometimes needing a 6 against a tougher foe. If he has advantage, rolling tends to be little more than a formality. In contrast, my character has 19 AC. I'm wearing full plate, and I have the defensive fighting style (I'm a multiclass fighter/wizard.) I didn't have any magic items at the time I started typing this, but I was just now informed that the party gained some magic items from the most recent loot. From the brief details I was given, I'm guessing my AC will jump somewhere into the 20s from magic plate and a ring of protection. While there are times when combat does still feel dangerous, there are also times when the contrast between what the DM is needing to roll versus what the players are needing to roll seems a bit odd. I think I still need a closer look at the numbers before gauging if this is even a problem at all. If nothing else, it has created a weird sense of 5E combat. Some encounters will be unbelievably lopsided in favor of the players; others will drop a PC early and easily, but it's typically one or the other with little room in between. I don't have a solid grasp of what (if anything) that means yet, but it then leads to noticing other things... One of those other things is that +N items still seem to be a problem. I love the idea of bounded accuracy, but I am unsure if adding extra boosts of a strictly numerical value risks making the game unbalanced in some situations. Looking back at my own character, I notice that my AC will be 20-something; on top of that, I can cast Shield and make myself harder to hit. Is that atypical or normal for the game? Thinking upon it further, I realize that I put most of that together by accident; I was simply trying to recreate my Skyrim character who was a heavily armored necromancer. It very likely could be that the group I'm in is doing something wrong with the stacking rules. Does a cloak of protection stack with a ring of protection? Does all of that stack with magic armor? Another thing I've noticed is that, with the AC of enemies being so low, ranged attacks seem to be much better than engaging in melee. While melee based classes can produce large quantities of damage via multiple attacks, the same thing can be done by arming my skeletal minions with crossbows and having them focus fire, and I can cover most of the battlefield that way rather than only the space right in front of me. I'm also starting to notice that spells such as Witch Bolt cast at higher spell slots reliably hit for a relatively high amount of damage; at range, and with continuing effects. Again, I'm not sure there's even a real problem there; I'm not even suggesting there necessarily is; just an observation of how the game I'm currently in seems to play out. Speaking of spells, there have also been a few situations which have come up that I'd like to get outside opinions on. The polymorph spell is on the verge of becoming a powerful weapon in our campaign, but in a somewhat unusual way. With the way the spell is worded, a creature reverts back to their normal form if their morphed form is killed. During part of the campaign, a creature had been polymorphed into a small animal and then fed to one of their allies. Eating the polymorphed creature caused it to be killed and revert back to normal form inside of the other creature; which then caused the eating creature to explode/be ripped apart. This has opened up talk of other ideas such as the party using polymorph on themselves and crawling inside of a foe for insta-kills. I'd be interested to get outside opinions on this situation. Also, when it comes to spells and multiclassing, how is a multiclass cleric praying for spells supposed to work? It appears as though someone could be a level 1 cleric and have 19 levels in a different spellcasting class, but still pray for spells for any level he has spell slots for -which would be all of them. While you'd have less cleric spells per day that you could prepare, you could just pick whatever you feel is best and still greatly boost the power of a character overall. For example, a cleric/wizard could use their handful of cleric spells per day to choose healing spells or something else lacking from their typical list. Is that how it's supposed to work? I don't feel that's necessarily broken; you're still limited by the number of spell slots and how many spells you can prepare per day per class, but it seems like a net gain for very little sacrifice. So, in closing... Is AC intentionally that low? If so, does giving a creature better armor significantly change the assumptions of the game or the challenge of an encounter? Does giving a lot of magic items to the party unbalance the game? Are there particular items which you've noticed are problematic? Does Polymorph Salad work as a tactic? What are you're thoughts on that situation, and how might you handle it differently? Any other thoughts or opinions are welcome [/QUOTE]
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