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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 2316375" data-attributes="member: 4937">The problem with assuming that the swiss were better for intangible reasons is that these intangible reasons don't tend to come up that often in mass combat simulations based on D&D games.  And even if we did model them, in 3rd edition, its not at all clear where they came from.   What skill equates to the ability to march in close formation?   What saving throw equates to higher morale?   What feat or skill equates to the ability to form a shield wall?   If these abilities arise by anything other than DM fiat, then they will certainly be closely tied to level. I can tell you haven't gamed alot of military conflicts in D&D.  In my experience, the PC's (the 10th level leader, the 8th level chaplain, his 8th level cousin, and there 5 5th level and up henchmen) could probably take an army of 500 War1's by relying on surprise, attrition, and manuever.   In a straight up fight, the'd lose, but you wouldn't see a straight up fight.  You'd see the PC's engage in alot of hit and run operations - attacking the War1's in camp or in column, killing a few score of them and then getting the heck out of dodge before using superior speed and stealth before the War1's could get themselves together.   They probably would take the 50 War3's with them, to provide a secure base camp and an ambush for any fraction of thier foes that followed them.   Otherwise the 50 War3's would stay out of the fight (digging into some defensive position) because they are just too fragile.  Meanwhile, the army of 500 War1's is suffering from disease, has much worse logisitics problems (it's got to stay fed), and has to stay paid.  Plus you have the problem of morale if after the first couple nights you've had 20% of them killed.   Clearly Nobleman B is one of my PC's, and in my experience he's going to wipe the floor with Nobleman A.   The 500 War1's of Nobleman B would stay home plowing the fields, or whatever economicly productive thing that they could be put to doing.   Worse come to worse, Nobleman B can always fall back to his countryside and have an intact army of 500 War1's while Nobleman A's army has been decimated while causing basically no permenent harm to the 10th and 8th level characters.</blockquote>

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