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Message: <blockquote data-quote="gizmo33" data-source="post: 2316716" data-attributes="member: 30001">("Intangible"?, not IMO, but...)  Yes, based on 3E rules I agree.  But I wouldn't use DnD melee rules for mass combat, as I mentioned in post#14 on this thread.  Of course I'm not saying that anyone who makes elite infantry War3 is crazy, just that there are other options that could be considered.  Depends what you mean by "alot" - I've certainly DMed zillions of encounters between high level PCs and mooks.  The point that seems to be missed here (and really missed by the "can a 20th level barbarian kill a million mooks" thread) is that there's no such thing as a 500 War1 army in any demographic situation that resembles what I'm proposing (straight 3E or not).  So what we can agree on is that I haven't gamed alot of military conflicts in your campaign world. So it's not a question of the high-level strike force flying around invisibly and fireballing 500 War1s all massed in a group.  The question is whether the high-level strike force does better or worse when accompanied/leading the 500 War1s.     IMC even moderately high level fighters and clerics do not have superior speed and stealth capabilities - this is an issue of magic items.   Also, War1s sitting in a camp without pickets/scouts, fire-retardant tents, a few hell-hound guard dogs that can see invisible, or some sort of technological answer to the threat of the flying, invisible wizard ARE going to get mashed.  Someone who bases their DnD armies strictly off of medieval technology/mindset is not really taking into account the environment (as an actual medieval warrior WOULD have).  If commander's spent time and resources recognizing/countering the threat of elephant troops (as I mentioned earlier), then it would be silly for them not to do the same with regards to flying-invisible-fireballer.  Page 1 of the "Field Guide to DnD armies" would say "Don't camp your War1s in a 20 ft radius of each other!".  And one problem is most DMs don't have such a field guide, and simply just throw more levels at the problem.  Our campaign differences aside, 50 War3's are only as "fragile" as their EL makes them.  A War3 is a CR2.  Taking into account that at 8 levels above, there is no challenge, you still could reasonably expect 50 War3's to match up against a party of L8 characters.  And again, 50 War3s would not be encountered without other characters appropriate to the demographic, perhaps a L5 rogue scout with a potion of flying and sharp eyes.   Good Point - something has to change if War1s are going to be a significant force, and that is you can't be assuming that all the worst real-world medieval problems are going to be hitting the War1s while none for the higher level PCs.   If I'm a 10th level leader of the War1s, I should be able to solve all of the problems that you're talking about at a relatively low cost.  Here's how:1.  disease:  are we talking Mummy Rot or tuberculosis?  Propose that Noble A be able to get a bulk-blessing on his troops from the War God Temple that protects them vs. "mundane" diseases. 2.  food:  recommend "elven waybread", purchased in small quantities and available for emergency situations.  A lucky commander would have a bag of holding - might as well put food in it until you can use it for treasure after the battle. 3.  pay and morale:  well, they are War1s after all, so deserting is probably more dangerous than in real life for the same reason you mention.  If the L10 is watching out for them, the War1s would probably view the L10 with the same "hero-worshipping" attitude reserved for the greatest commanders IRL.  Besides, it was not uncommon IRL for troops to NOT get paid in a timely fashion.  Other factors must come into play before this is a problem.  An important point:  "by-the-book" 3E is designed (magic items, spells, etc.) for the problems of Dungeon Crawling.  Yet another thing for the "Heroes of Battle" book to have addressed.  Aren't they both 10th level?  IMC 10th level PCs DO NOT wipe the floor with 10th level NPCs, and CERTAINLY not NPCs with significant groups of lower-level NPCs supporting them - intelligently deployed or not.  I really believe that what you're thinking here is that Nobleman A is also a War1 leading 500 other War1s.</blockquote>

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