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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 2319991" data-attributes="member: 4937">I hardly know how to respond to that.With a guess, only about as much as outlawing evocation spells would make. Good grief, what do you disagree with me on then?Well, I don't know what to make of your experience, if only because it appears its colored by even more house rules than I have, but I would say that the above represents a break down in party cohesion that would be utterly shocking to the players I'm most used to playing with.  When the chips are down, players expect the other players to be part of the team and they expect them to be highly skillful members of the team that regularly save each others bacon.   My experience is that what you described isn't related to level.   Wizards and rogues are expected as part of their unwritten 'terms of employment' to be able to perform solo undertakings that are valuable for achieving party goals, but when the party is collected they are expected to act like the components of a well oiled machine. Going right back to the beginning and starting over, as I've said before the demographics of the game are hanging around despite the fact that the assumptions of the game have completely changed.   If you start giving monsters attributes like constitution and strength, and start letting normal people gain levels, and start actually paying attention to things like size and reach and so forth, then the demographics are going to have to change. That said, I could have made the same point about the problem with the demographic assumptions by mentioning a different monster.   For example, what do 1st edition armies/societies do about maruading gangs of gargoyles?   And how to 1st edition societies manage to deal with monsters like gargoyles given that it takes something a 17th level to make a sword +1 and then only with great difficulty?   The basic point remains the same.   The rules and the demographics explaining how to apply those rules to get a functioning game world just don't agree.</blockquote>

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