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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 8271138" data-attributes="member: 177">BoVD and BoED are not core, and older than many in the player base at this point, so I wouldn't look too hard to them for support.Given how much we argue about alignment, it is clear that what is stated in the rules is not really definitional to the game as played, especially when what is in the books is not generally consistent, either in exact wording, or in philosophy.So, for this discussion, this is assuming the conclusion.  You are resting your position on a particular definition of "harm" (you put it in quotes yourself, calling attention to the fact that its definition is in question) that does not hold in all philosophical systems.There are philosophical systems in which it is thought that a lie, in and of itself, does harm - it is a debasement and degradation of the speaker and the recipient.  In such a system, at best the lie is only acceptable if the harm of the lie is lesser than the available alternatives.We are apt to find that discussion of philosophical systems bears a lot in common with formal logic - in which you have to be absolutely certain of what your founding axioms are.  The moral and ethical qualities of certain basic acts are philosophic axioms - and you cannot disprove or dismiss a philosophical framework with axioms from another framework.</blockquote>