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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8915681" data-attributes="member: 93670">No it's bigger than that those things you listed as &quot;systems&quot; have<a href="https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/48414/roleplaying-games/1dd-the-5e-skill-system-is-bad" target="_blank"> their own problems</a>&nbsp; with some of them even violating the goals of the others. Proficiency growing with levels violates bounded accuracy on an objective level by sheer virtue of the objective fact that the rest of the system doesn't keep up with the growth in proficiency bonus.&nbsp; Expertise does so again to an even more extreme degree.&nbsp; (dis)advantage beats the whole thing bloody while invoking <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument" target="_blank">maslow's hammer</a> to force itself in place of any possible&nbsp; situation in ways that would not even have been a credible &quot;what if&quot; thought experiment for purposes of discussion prior to 5e doing it.&nbsp; That mess happens exactly because 5e &amp; 5e's skill system is trying to support &quot;<a href="https://www.enworld.org/goto/post?id=8914944" target="_blank">completely opposing preferences</a>&quot; in an effort to &quot;<a href="https://www.enworld.org/goto/post?id=8915561" target="_blank">accommodate the greatest number of playstyles</a>&quot; while simply dumping the mutually incompatible results on the GM.If 5e went the way of pre-3.x d&amp;d where skills were not really a thing &amp; the GM got to decide if a player can do X &amp; how they did it that would be one thing &amp; I may or may not like the results.... But that's not what 5e did either, it gave a crunchy core skill system for players to use and left out <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/giving-an-ad-d-feel-to-5e.679228/post-8241363" target="_blank">the gm side stuff</a>* right down to forcing the GM to debate if &quot;would you like to use your action for that?&quot; or &quot;what is your character doing to accomplish that?&quot; is a reasonable GM call or not <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/i-make-a-perception-check.690449/page-72" target="_blank">for seventy two pages</a>. &amp; <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54YfhiEoUCY" target="_blank">even longer at the table</a>.*That one was apparently even in 4e, <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/10keyax/comment/j5ry54z/?utm_source=share&amp;utm_medium=web2x&amp;context=3" target="_blank">source</a>.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8915681, member: 93670"] No it's bigger than that those things you listed as "systems" have[URL='https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/48414/roleplaying-games/1dd-the-5e-skill-system-is-bad'] their own problems[/URL] with some of them even violating the goals of the others. Proficiency growing with levels violates bounded accuracy on an objective level by sheer virtue of the objective fact that the rest of the system doesn't keep up with the growth in proficiency bonus. Expertise does so again to an even more extreme degree. (dis)advantage beats the whole thing bloody while invoking [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_instrument']maslow's hammer[/URL] to force itself in place of any possible situation in ways that would not even have been a credible "what if" thought experiment for purposes of discussion prior to 5e doing it. That mess happens exactly because 5e & 5e's skill system is trying to support "[URL='https://www.enworld.org/goto/post?id=8914944']completely opposing preferences[/URL]" in an effort to "[URL='https://www.enworld.org/goto/post?id=8915561']accommodate the greatest number of playstyles[/URL]" while simply dumping the mutually incompatible results on the GM. If 5e went the way of pre-3.x d&d where skills were not really a thing & the GM got to decide if a player can do X & how they did it that would be one thing & I may or may not like the results.... But that's not what 5e did either, it gave a crunchy core skill system for players to use and left out [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/giving-an-ad-d-feel-to-5e.679228/post-8241363']the gm side stuff[/URL]* right down to forcing the GM to debate if "would you like to use your action for that?" or "what is your character doing to accomplish that?" is a reasonable GM call or not [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/i-make-a-perception-check.690449/page-72']for [I]seventy[/I] [I]two[/I] pages[/URL]. & [URL='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54YfhiEoUCY']even longer at the table[/URL]. *[I]That[/I] one was apparently even in 4e, [URL='https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/10keyax/comment/j5ry54z/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3']source[/URL]. [/QUOTE]

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