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<blockquote data-quote="Spatula" data-source="post: 1057761" data-attributes="member: 2198">He's talking about the death of Sturm in book 2.But the deaths in Song of Ice &amp; Fire aren't pointless.You say Martin is &quot;F***&quot;ing up the plot by killing characters, which is a silly statement - the plot is what the author defines it to be, not what the reader wants it to be.&nbsp; And I haven't seen anything in Martin's writing that points to him as a lazy or weak plotter.&nbsp; Just the opposite, in fact....because characters died?If you want unchallenging fiction that conforms to a set pattern of heroes, villians, and good triumphing over evil, the Song of Ice &amp; Fire isn't for you.&nbsp; Personally I appreciate a story that has an interesting story with interesting characters, and that has the capacity to shock and surprise me.&nbsp; I personally find that most fantasy fiction that follows your guidelines for &quot;good&quot; fiction lacking in all of the above.&nbsp; No surprises, boring characters, and trite &amp; cliched stories.Perhaps it could be said that Martin's work is there to appeal to the jaded fantasy reader.&nbsp; Or to those that enjoy reading non-fantasy, non-genre fiction, and aren't as attached to the standard fantasy genre conventions.&nbsp; I fall into both categories, and I love Martin's work with these books.&nbsp; But of course, tastes vary.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Spatula, post: 1057761, member: 2198"] He's talking about the death of Sturm in book 2.[b][/b]But the deaths in Song of Ice & Fire aren't pointless. You say Martin is "F***"ing up the plot by killing characters, which is a silly statement - the plot is what the author defines it to be, not what the reader wants it to be. And I haven't seen anything in Martin's writing that points to him as a lazy or weak plotter. Just the opposite, in fact.[b][/B]...because characters died? If you want unchallenging fiction that conforms to a set pattern of heroes, villians, and good triumphing over evil, the Song of Ice & Fire isn't for you. Personally I appreciate a story that has an interesting story with interesting characters, and that has the capacity to shock and surprise me. I personally find that most fantasy fiction that follows your guidelines for "good" fiction lacking in all of the above. No surprises, boring characters, and trite & cliched stories. Perhaps it could be said that Martin's work is there to appeal to the jaded fantasy reader. Or to those that enjoy reading non-fantasy, non-genre fiction, and aren't as attached to the standard fantasy genre conventions. I fall into both categories, and I love Martin's work with these books. But of course, tastes vary. [/QUOTE]

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