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Message: <blockquote data-quote="stevelabny" data-source="post: 1220648" data-attributes="member: 9298">this thread got long and brutal pretty quickly.Allow me to jump in and make it longer and even more brutal.As previously stated, I read these boosk for the first time in July/Augustand am currently in the middle of my first re-read.thats how much i loved themis this groundbreaking literature? hardlyis it different that most of the fantasy books "we" grew up on? yes.almost every fantasy book I read growing up was a clone of the Belgariad. That was my yardstick because that was my favorite series.You could see the same characters/story/plot devices in almost EVERY series.Were my reading selections probably extremely limited ? yes.Does that change anything? no.So many people my age (30) LOVE the original star wars trilogy because it was NEW to us. the epic-fantasy tale of orphan boy with special powers meets old man, sneaky guy, beautiful princess, big hairy strong guy, and comic relief supporting characters, learns his true power, finds out the bad guy is his dad ("what an insanely ORIGINAL idea," i thought when i was 7)  and saves the universe. Sure we all realize now that there was NOTHING original about the story but try convincing 7-year old me. What made Empire Strikes Back such a great movie? The bad guys won, there was no happy ending. Another thing I had never seen before. I loved it. And even  today, it BARELY happens.Song of Ice and Fire is different than what "we're" used to, and thats why we like it.  I've read "different" or "edgy" just for the sake of being edgy and this ISN'T it. I really wish the nay-sayers can point out the particular edgy for edgys sake scenes, or the suspension of disbelief plot twists because everything reads pretty reactionary to me. Something happens, which causes something else to happen. Thats it. The Merovingian would love it.When I look at A Song of Ice and Fire, I don't see a bunch of evil characters who are "getting away unscathed" First off, the WHOLE POINT of these books is to show that there is TWO SIDES to every story. THAT is  your moral lesson. What looks like evil from the Stark side . doesnt look evil from the Lannister side.  Please note how everyone hated Jaime until he got his own POV...then he became the hero seeking redemption that many are rooting for. He hasnt changed since page one of Game of Thrones, you're just getting to see him from HIS point of view. I can't wait till Cersei gets her POV so everyone can decide she's not so bad too. And secondly, THE SERIES ISNT OVER, by series end, many of the bad guys will either be redeemed or dead. I think. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" />Jaime [spoiler]throws a boy from a roof, but get a POV and becomes redeemable.[/spoiler]Arya [spoiler] kills people in cold blood (or gives the commands too) and is one of the "heroes" [/spoiler]Jon Snow who is universally acclaimed as the ONLY REAL HERO in these books,  [spoiler]abandons the woman he loves for his "duty" and indirectly causes her death, but is considered a hero because he is a POV character. Personally, I think he's MORE of a scum because he thinks he's so honorable and will betray those he loves for "duty" then someone who would do the reverse. You know nothing, Jon Snow and I really hope your death is messy.[/spoiler]Tyrion [spoiler] had done NOTHING wrong at all up until the very end of book 3, and people still act defensive when suggesting they like him , because his last name is Lannister so he must be evil. (like all orcs and goblins? sigh) [/spoiler]IT amazes me how people are always so drawn directly to the POV characters, like being inside their heads makes them better people or something.As for Sandor killing a farmboy and being proud of it...1> you saw his smugness FROM NED'S POV... Ned is an overly pompous  "honorable" man who always pre-judged people by their last name and often  cut off his hand to spite his face. Basically, Ned is an idiot, and his opinion is worthless (see Mormont, Jorah) Don't pretend Ned is "good" either, the series STARTS with him beheading a defenseless man for a crime that we know ISN'T true. (or at least, not without a VERY good reason) 2> Sandor has a problem with knights and lords and all the political nonsense. He is the player in this game who DOESNT WANT TO PLAY THE GAME BY THE RULES. In his view, when you play the game of thrones, you win, you die, or you bide your time playing by the bogus rules until you can flip over the table and play a different game by your own rules. Every puppet-master and manipulator in this series plays by the rules. Every knight follows orders. Every pawn whimpers miserably as they are forced to play the game. Sandor is the wild card. 3>  Should he kill the boy who the prince he defends says attacked him? Should he listen to the young girl who swears its not true?  He's seen the hypocrisy that is the high-born of Westeros rationalizing their actions and calling it morality. He has come to the ultimate truth that if morality is nothing but rationalizing your actions, then his actions dont matter. Sandor's first rule is "Life is cruel" and he probably thinks he's done the kid a favor.4> Most importantly, we still dont know what really happened. Idiot Ned assumes that Sandor ran down the defensless boy, and Sandor says nothing to change his mind, but since we never saw the scene, we cant really say.My long and tedious thought porcess summed up:  Compared to what the rest of the world is doing, this guy is a saint. He's possibly guilty of the death of ONE innocent under orders. Otherwise his record is clean. He doesnt have any stupid "principles" This is the hero youre looking for.I read comic books, I love the idea of a HERO. But, I must admit, I do prefer when my heroes are grounded in the real world instead of being perfect.(Also know as Marvel rules, DC drools)  Does A Song of Ice and Fire have too many gray characters? Maybe, but this a "real world" story. I don't know about you but I don't know any innocent real world heroes in my life. Every single person I know has lied, cheated and stolen. Usually rationalized as "white lies", "everyone cheats on their taxes" and "downloading off the internet isnt stealing because the big companies are ripping us off" but sometimes in other less "harmless" ways.In the modern world, the average person has become civilized enough to not kill other people (depending on which side of the abortion debate you take, but we're NOT getting into that) but the average person is nowhere near a hero.I've never known a fireman personally, but every cop I've ever known personally makes me wonder if they really give these psychopaths a mental health test before giving them a gun. NOT heroes in my book.I've seem some people give to a charity when theyre guilty, or take care of stray kittens if theyre cute, but I know NO heroes.If its good enough for my real life, its good enough for my books.The "fun, escapist entertainment" part? ALL THE COOL, WITTY DIALOGUE.George RR Martin writes the best trash-talk, and I want to play fantasy-sports with him. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":-)" title="Smile    :-)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":-)" />Ok I'm off to bed, can't wait to see the responses tomorrow</blockquote>

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