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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 6852228" data-attributes="member: 6750235">A person doesn't have two hands available for those instruments regardless of holding a weapon in one or both hands.  Your objection doesn't make sense.  However, the way to make it work is to sheath one weapon as part of the action in order to make a free hand available for use of a spell component pouch.  No instrument is required at all and that still enables the bard to remain armed with the other weapon for an opportunity attack if it comes up.  All the character needs to do is sheath one weapon before casting the spell and use the component pouch, and then draw the weapon again as part of the action when attacking again on the next round.Evidence that 95% or more bards would not take it?  Especially when they are making a group of bards and realize the AC could help them?  You are also assuming that CHA 16 is required and not allowing characters the option to purchase their own equipment.  Your argument is just assumption based on your perception of what a bard would do when the reality is that you are ignoring open possibilities in order to maintain a preconceived notion.Not all clerics are going to have heavy armor either (only some subclasses), and if they did, they still won't have better than chain armor.  The armor type isn't relevant -- the armor class from the armor available and worn plus possible investment in DEX is what matters, and possibly some feats.  Your numbers are misleading because of 12 classes the bard has the same or better hit points as 2/3's of them and similar armor class to most of them.  Barbarians with big weapons and medium armor have the same AC.  Clerics may have medium armor and might have DEX investment or may have chain armor for a slightly higher AC.  Druids have the same hit points and armor.  Fighters are better off with choice of DEX vs STR, all armors, shields, etc.  Monks have to split ability score investment just as much as bards or any other class, and are looking at 14 through 16 AC.  Paladins also have heavy armor and shields, but tend to use heavy weapons in my experience and would also have AC 16 with chain mail.  Rangers have the same AC as valor bards or lore bards who pick up medium armor & shield.  Rogues have the exact same armor as first level bards and same hit points (claims of a class ability mentioned are not valid and I'll comment more below).  Sorcerers have lower armor.  Warlocks have the same armor as lore bards and not valor bards.  Wizards have lower armor.It's just not some big gap like you are trying to claim.The additional information mentioned above was in respect to rogues.  It's a statement of hypocrisy to claim bards have worse AC and then mention abilities that have have nothing to do with AC.  All classes have class abilities to help in various ways.  Things like cunning action are really nice but using it loses the bonus action and including it in an AC example ignores other abilities that bards have like spells and inspiration dice that also conserve hit points.  It's not like cunning action can really be directly compared to full progression spell casting objectively.Sleep is great, but in response to your point: it's a good thing it's not the only spell that would be known.  It's also possible to sneak past opponents who cannot be slept using a group stealth check (barring environment not being suitable) and bardic inspiration across the board for anyone who might roll poorly.  All bards means all characters can be inspired at the same time.The bard doesn't need to drop anything.  Like I mentioned to another poster, storing one item or retrieving one item as part of an action is allowed.  All it takes is using that option.  You are also reiterating that the AC is bad but it's still the same as other characters who would focus on combat for a DEX based bard.  AC 15 on a bard will continue to be as good or marginally lower than AC 15 or 16 on another character.  The number isn't different just because the class name or armor type is different.Average damage for the TWF bard is 7+DEX.  Going with one of the melee oriented bards that 16 DEX for 10 avg damage.  That's the same as other characters using TWF and better than a d12 weapon.  It's the same as a great sword.  Most cantrip slingers are doing 5.5 or less.  Most weapon users are doing the same or less.  Characters who are using shields and weapons are typically doing 4.5+mod for less in exchange for that better AC.Looking at your specific examples:  Barbarian with a great axe does 6.5+3=9.5 damage instead of 10, lower except when he gets +2 damage from rage twice per day.  I like war clerics, but the cleric with 16 STR and a great sword is doing the same damage with each attack (in doing so he also has the same AC or 1 AC higher and the same hp).  d8+mod from shillelagh is 7.5 avg per hit.  Fighters using d8+2+mod for one style comes out at 10.5 for a slightly higher amount, could do better with TWF style but that hurts them in the long run, or does the same or less damage.  The same is true for rangers and paladins at 2nd level but at 1st level they aren't any better off.  Warlocks don't get ability mod at 1st level so it's only 5.5 for eldritch blast, and 8.5 at 2nd level for less still.  Monks and rogues are better damage provided the rogue is using his bonus action for an off hand weapon (nullifying your earlier assertion) or the same using the hit and run method assuming sneak attack is possible.  Martial arts bonus attack for the monk using a staff two handed is pretty good at those levels.The end result is that most classes would do the same damage as the TWF bard by using the same TWF as well at those same levels, or less damage.  TWF is one of the higher forms of low level damage.  Your assertion that the average would be d6+mod is incorrect because of the very flawed logic that the bard would need to have S/M components available at the same time the bard is attacking.  That's completely incorrect because the bard is either attacking or casting a spell, not both.  When the bard is not casting a spell the bard is doing 2d6+mod and when the bard is casting a spell the bard is not attacking with any weapons.  As mentioned earlier, all that requires is a spell component pouch and sheathing one weapon for the casting.That's a big "if" and the core problem with your statements.  How you are identifying the "average" is your subjective opinion.  Where one party might have a AC member, mostly similar AC members, and a lower AC member or two the bard party simply removes some of the more extremes for something similar in the average.  The same is true for hit points and damage.  There's nothing about the class that isn't competitive with baseline abilities or averages, only upper limits.</blockquote>

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