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Message: <blockquote data-quote="zaratan" data-source="post: 6852689" data-attributes="member: 6810501">You do the same thing to prove your point, but you only over optimize bard, not other classes: "Monks typically have 15 AC from what I've seen."No, my friend, you presumed that your bard has 16 of Dex, good Con for HP and dumping Cha isn't a real optimion for bards (check the last 50 posts in Cha Opt about bards to get your statistic). This is a real optimized bard.So, to check standard, I will compare with "real optimized" classes, ok? Without abuse. You want numbers to prove? If we add all classes hit dice and subtract, we get 8,5, bard has 8. 8 < 8,5 agree? "but the difference is low" - well, I never said the oposite, and still don't know why you keep those text walls because you  misinterpreted at beggining.But the fact is this isn't a standard bard, just look the last 10 posts in character optimization about bards to get statistic. Seriously, check.  We both are over optimizing. If we not, we can't assume all bards will have 15 of AC. If you want envolve feats, will be worse, because damage + defence of other classes will raise even more since many classes don't need moderated armored to have a good AC. but the ranger has more HP, and at lvl 2, the TWF of the ranger will do much more damage. Same as Rogue, is equal as bard in defense, but is less MAD, so can get better Con. Ok, it is arbitrary, but if you want to prove I'm wrong, get the less 100 buildings in Cha optimization and check how many will get that feat. Or just let this topic die. But we're in a internet forum, right? Better way to check statistic? Now you're adding variables like I did with cunning action. If you compare damage reduction of resistance from rage, you'll see that 2 heals/day aren't that great. Let's keep other features out of this. Barbarian scale mail AC 16 and HP 13 - your bard AC 15 - HP 10. can do more damage Druids:Land druids are equal bards, they need dex, but they get shield (less damage than bard) AC 17 - HP 10. Moon druids, well you want to make I go for the best tank in the game? AC 15 - HP 10, at lvl 2 +70HP and much more damage. But even them I'll give you a draw here.1 x 1 x 0 agaist bardsFighters are no argument there. 2 x 1 x 0 Monks typically have 15 AC from what I've seen. - No, let's talk about real optimized, so AC 16 HP 10, or AC 15 HP 11, and more damage than bards. 3 x 1 x 0 Paladins are no arguments there. 4 x 1 x 0 Rangers - not the same AC, they can have medium armor. AC 16 HP 10, and at lvl 2 much more damage than bards 5 x 1 x 0 Clerics Can have better armor, or even better damage, but I'll give up a draw here. 5 x 2 x 0Rogues have the same hit points and AC. But they can get better Con, since they only need to bump dex and they get better damage.  6 x 2 x 0Warlocks - here the defense is equal of most bards, they need dex for defense, but priority is cha, is exactly as bard. but even them, I'll give 1 point to bard here since only bladelocks will get the same damage at low lvls. 6 x 2 x 1Sorc and wizard are point to bards 6 x 2 x 3Now, please, explain how this is "exactly average"? I'll repeat one more time, the difference is small, will be gone later lvls, but a group of bards will start the game with ofense/defense "below average". Any 16 dex with 14 con bard is optimized. If you whink any of the buildings I maybe was hardly optimized, I can add PAM, GWM, shield master, crossbow expert, tought, heavly armored...</blockquote>

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