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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 7985895" data-attributes="member: 18">No worries re: delay, I'm not on the clock! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> That is literally a thread that came about because Sorcerers aren't very good (which many people in it seem to agree with), with some extremely bad arguments about niche stuff they can do which as you boils down to:A) Silent spell on spells when you're unseen/invisible (or the spell has no Somatic component) is impossible to Counterspell.To which I would respond, how many times, exactly, in your entire adventuring career in 5E, have you been counterspelled? Because in my group, over what hundreds or thousands of encounters, it's twice. Ever.To say that is thus "niche" would be a gross understatement. We're talking something applicable to far less than 1% of fights. It has more applicability outside combat, but very little that can't be accessed other ways.B) You can nova really hard.To which I say, yeah, with a 5MWD. Everyone who has daily spell slots is an absolute menace in a 5MWD. 5MWDs do happen in some campaigns - but 5E is not intended to be balanced in such situations.The only strong non-5MWD example is a SorLock, which yes, is a strong MC combo (because it solves the "can't do much damage with cantrips" issue Sorcerers have), but isn't a Sorcerer (and using CON as the Sorcerer stat would make SorLocks less viable, not more).Even several of the people offering ways Sorcerers aren't rubbish also feel the need to say they "have issues" or the like! And the vast majority of people saying "metamagic is great!" have zero examples (I mean literally give no examples, at all). Several people cast some doubt on Sorcerers generally. And I dunno if I need to go through all the pages or what, but I'm not seeing anything where, even with hyperbole, anyone is saying anything remotely like:Like, maybe this isn't the thread you meant. But the thread you've linked is just people pushing a few somewhat dubious situational things Sorcerers can do. Metamagic is sadly largely unimpressive (esp. compared to 3.XE), particularly if you actually follow the rules (which admittedly a lot of people do not, but my groups tend to). A couple of people claim they become much better in T3/4 when they have more Sorcery points, but also people in the thread claim they're still behind other casters in those Play-Tiers. So... I'm not saying this "you'd have to be dumb to play a Wizard!".Again though, Sorcerers aren't "trash" or anything, they're just a bit "meh" in terms of actual capabilities. SorLocks are a goddamn menace though.</blockquote>

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