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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7993605" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I took the part of your post that addressed the point I wanted to cover. Most of your post was about Con as a casting stat, which I have no real opinion on. The other half was saying that it was clear that the PHB subclasses were missing features and not up to par. So, I felt no reason to include that in a discussion on the Divine Soul. So, that is the reason I took only a single sentence, it was the only part dealing with the aspect I wanted to discuss and none of the others dealt with that aspect. Also, perhaps it is people blocking me that I can't see, but I have not seen anyone talking that Divine Soul has far more to offer than cleric spells. Especially at level 1, the level I was talking about. In fact, I listed every single 1st level ability of the Divine Soul. But, skimming you post you don't bring up the other abilities, so I'll go ahead and cover them.6th level: Empowered Healing, allowing sorcery points to be spent on healing spells. Which, Sorcerers have zero access to healing spells natively. Interestingly, by the wording it works on any healing spell, not just the ones you cast, which is a cool bit I've never noticed. Still, no one I've ever seen sings the praises of the healing empowerment. 14th Level: Free Wings. Nice, but Somehow I get the feeling this isn't something people are clamoring to play Divine Souls for. 18th level: Restore yourself to half hp. This is a nice ability. Nothing more to say about it. So, if you could point me to which of these abilities is "the strongest thing divine soul has to offer" especially in a meta-setting where most games do not go past 10th level and therefore do not get the last two abilities, then we can discuss it. Otherwise, I think "has cleric spells" seems to be the biggest thing, and it is the only thing I tend to see people talking about with the Divine Soul. Great, so in regards to the original question you asked "...the base Sorcerer is fine. Look at the Divine Soul and tell me what's wrong with it and needs improving." Can we both agree that being the only Sorcerer subclass with the single most requested and agreed upon feature for all sorcerers, is a sign that the Divine Soul is not indicative of the sorcerer design as a whole?It would seem to me that being singular in that sense and being the only good subclass, hints that the base sorcerer is in fact, not fine.Ah, so your argument is actually that the base class is fine, it is the subclasses that need design work. Hmm, okay, I can see a good point there and I half agree with you. Base Sorcerer is really really sparse, so we are talking about three or four things. They get a wizard's equipment proficiencies and HD. They get their saves, which are good saves. They get their spell list. They get Metamagic. So, by saying that this is all fine and it is the subclasses that are poorly designed, we have to ask, why does the Divine Soul work? What do they get that makes it all come together...And the answer seems to be the cleric spell list. Which would mean that the base sorcerer is not okay, because the one feature the Divine soul gets that defines it, is access to spells outside of the Sorcerer List. And frankly, I think the metamagic system is anemic and gutted, which I'll get to in a moment.He wanted a low int, low wis divine caster born with magic, trained and failed out of cleric school. That is why he picked Divine Soul. For the story.We also just hit level six. So he just became a level 5 sorcerer. Which means he has had zero access before now to the third level spells you mentioned. I believe he did take Haste this level up, but I also want to point out something to you, which again, I think shows just how fundamentally broken the sorcerer is. Your example of a "representative sorcerer" was a 5th level caster (because they need to have access to 3rd level spells) casting one of three spells (you said ect, but Polymorph or Haste is always recommended) using a single metamagic (twin) which, costs 3 pts to use in this manner. Meaning, that at level 5 they can do this once before they need to start consuming their spells slots to fuel this again, and twice only because they only have two slots. And this is a problem, because there are only a few viable combos with Sorcerers, ever. This would be the equivalent of saying that you aren't playing a "representative fighter" unless you are using a Battlemaster's precise strike with a greatsword, the GW style and GW feat. Or the "representative barbarian" who is resistant to fire damage. Those should be builds, and you shouldn't have to wait until halfway through the game to finally start being able to act as your class "should"</blockquote>

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