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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8001584" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Moved things out of order a little bitSee, I really hate multi-classing as a defense for Sorcerers. To me it is almost identical to the Divine Soul argument "Sorcerers are fine as long as they are not sorcerers. " If that is the case, then the sorcerer is not fine.The first one falls directly into that multi-class issue. With no armor and lack of access to good finesse weapons, pure sorcerers suck at melee combat. You might be able to pull it off by spamming shocking grasp as a dragon sorcerer, but you are so much more effective at range. And, while EB is great, not a sorcerer spell. Sure a Quickened EB is devastating, but you need a way to actually get it, and unless you go warlock, you can't get the mod to it. This is also a good point to remind you that Quicken has a static cost of 2 points. When you get it at level 3, you can do this once per day without eating spell slots. It isn't even until 6th level that you can do it three times a day. If you want to build with reliance on attacking and casting the same turn, then you are going to be dealing with 5-minute workdays or no high level spells. Sure, sounds great, I love defending the sorcerer by explaining how more than three levels of sorcerer is unnecessary because you can do just as much damage with their at-will cantrips by leveling in literally anything else. Sure, a decent use for it, but again, cost. Is a third of all my metamagic worth casting that spell after disengaging? Why didn't I just cast it in melee if it is a spell with a save?See, this is actually the best use of it in my opinion, taking spells that require an action to use and getting a second spell effect that same turn. The whirlwind combo is a high level one, but immensely powerful if you can pull it off. Of course, you can also just use your turn to cast Whirlwind, which should restrain by the start of your next turn, then disintegrate on your next turn. No Quicken required.And I maintain that this view is short sighted, and tends to only look at a single round or combo and declare that enough. Sure, your Sorcerer 3/Warlock 3 build just quickened Eldritch Blast for 4d10+12 damage, let's add Hex for an extra 4d6 damage on top.And next turn you only have 1 sorcerery point left, so if you want to do it a second time you are either going to eat your second Pact Magic slot, or you are going to start eating your sorcerer slots. And you might be 2 rounds into the first combat, leaving you with a possible 16 more rounds of combat to go over the course of the day, and you are already needing to start burning yourself down.And that is one of the best courses for Sorcerer. A full sorcerer would likely have only done 4d10 damage, no mod, and used a third of all their points, Which again, hey, that is useful, but you start running on fumes quickly.And, if you consume spell slots, then you are falling behind other casters in their spells per day, heck, even using metamagic at all can start that downslide.</blockquote>

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