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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8002079" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Tomelock the same number of cantrips, but not the point.Yes, cantrips are great and sorcerers have more of them. But, anyone could have minor illusion, firebolt and chill touch. That isn't unique to the sorcerer, they are actually the only full caster who does not have a unique cantrip. I suppose you could argue the wizard doesn't either, except they have a cantrip that the Sorcerer does not (Toll of the Dead stolen from cleric)But, what is the effective difference between casting Firebolt or Chill touch against an orc? Just that firebolt is stronger. There is very little that cantrips can do for sorcerers that they don't leave for anyone else.It was late, and I was typing while doing something else. They can only do their unique thing once. At level 3 you can either use a single metamagic like quicken or you can make a single first or second slot. That is it. Even most of their subclasses are completely passive by this level. Compare to a wizard who can use any number of rituals, and recover at least a first level slot, and can use their subclass ability to affect combat.Sorcerers are (or) wizards are (and)It is about the type of choices. Sure, a wizard only has 2 chances to use a second level spell. And if they do, they still have all of their first level spells, all of their rituals, all of their class abilitiesA sorcerer could choose to have a third second level spell. As soon as they do, they are either cutting off metamagic or devouring their other spells. As soon as they choose to do something the wizard can't they've cut off their other options. If they decide that Quicken Scorching Ray is a good idea, they no longer can cast a third second level spell, or use other metamagics, unless they then also decide to get rid of their first level spells.That is the point I'm trying to make. Sorcerers look like they have a lot of options. They can have a bunch of spells or they can use metamagic, but the problem is that those two things are mutually exclusive. And the "more spells" only works for more higher level combat spells. If you take into account sheer volume of spells, the wizard can come out ahead for all of their rituals.Which is why I said once for low level sorcerers. And double twin polymorphs and a single quicken uses everything, no extra spells this time, so if the day has more than those three fights, you've started cutting into your resources. Meanwhile, the wizard still has everything, and likely has a fourth 3rd level slot to use. And has been doing things outside of combat as well.Combining spell points and sorcerery points is against the design. They are supposed to be two separate pools. That way you can still convert 3 sorcerery points into 2 spell points, or 7 sorcerery points into 5 spell points.Huh? How are you getting those numbers? Quicken costs 2 points. At 3rd level you have three points. So, that is 1.We have two second level spells, so if we convert them I get up to 3.Four first level spells gets us up to 5 uses of quicken by third level.5, not eleven. And, you only used Cantrips. You cast zero leveled spells. So, you seem to be completely wrong here.Ah yes, when barbarians rage they use up their limited uses of Reckless attack correct? Action surge turns off a fighter's fighting style and prevents them from using second wind right? Rogues using cunning action to disengage means that they permanently loss dice from their sneak attack damage until a long rest, correct? Druid wildshape costs a second level spell correct? The issue isn't that they can't do everything. It is that the moment they do their unique mechanic, it shuts down their other options. If a Sorcerer wants to keep up with the number of spells a wizard can cast, they can't use metamagic. If they want to use metamagic, they fall behind in spells per day.This is undeniable.Other classes don't lose access to their unique class features when using their resources. If a wizard casting a spell meant that they lost potential spell levels from their Arcane Recovery, then you'd be seeing something more similar to what the sorcerer is dealing with.</blockquote>

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