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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8002365" data-attributes="member: 6801228">This is not a refutation of the point I was making. This is an aside.Yeah, completely ignoring the point. Let's show it this way. 3rd levelWizard - Arcane recovery: a second level spell. Rituals cast (X)Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a second level spell. No points left to use any metamagic abilities for the dayIf sorcerer uses a Single Quicken - No spells gained4th levelWizard - Arcane recovery: a second level spell. Rituals cast (X)Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a second level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the dayIf a sorcerer uses a single Quicken - Sorcerer gains a 1st level slot instead5th levelWizard - Arcane recovery: a third level spell. Rituals cast (X)Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a third level spell. No points left to use any metamagic abilities for the dayIf sorcerer uses a single Quicken - a second level slot instead6th levelWizard - Arcane recovery: a third level spell. Rituals cast (X)Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a third level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the dayIf a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a second level slot instead and a single point leftover7th levelWizard - Arcane recovery: a fourth level spell. Rituals cast (X)Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a fourth level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the dayIf a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a third level slot instead8th level Wizard - Arcane recovery: a fourth level spell. Rituals cast (X)Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a fifth level spell. A single point left to use any metamagic abilities for the dayIf a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a fourth level slot only9th Wizard - Arcane recovery: a fifth level spell. Rituals cast (X)Sorcerer - Font of Magic: a fifth level spell and a first level spell. No points left to use any metamagic abilities for the dayIf a Sorcerer uses a single Quicken a Fifth level slot onlySo, to repeat. If a sorcerer acts like a sorcerer, by only using a metamagic like Quicken once over the day. They are suddenly behind the wizard until 8th level where they match. Which is what I was saying. If the sorcerer acts like a sorcerer (ie uses their unique mechanic) then they almost immediately fall behind the wizard. And I know, they aren't forced to use metamagic, they can decide to not use it. But that is their class identity. Their class identity is not "match the wizard with a smaller spell selection and no ritual casting", it isn't "cast more high level spells and burn out" it is supposed to be "use metamagic to alter magic in ways other classes can't" Really? You want to claim that Metamagic can't be quantified because it is too unique? Well, you can't quantify any spellcasters abilities at all then. Because every spell is unique. In fact, wizards get more unique spells so they are even more unquantifiable than sorcerers. If you are going to hide behind "it is too situational to ever determine its value" then we will never get anywhere.Well, we've proven you wrong actually. They can only cast more spells than the wizard at 8th level or higher (when most games go to 10th) and that is completely ignoring rituals. So, if the sorcerers ability is supposed to be "cast more spells over the course of the day" then they fail. Font of Magic has two uses. Making spell slots. Using Metamagic. Since we have proven that making spell slots is not the point, that leaves metamagic. And turning low level spells into high level spells seems like a devil's bargain to me. Shield is a spell I've seen spammed on casters (mostly enemy ones) more than anything else. Even at 10th level getting that +5 to AC is worth it to prevent all that incoming damage. Every single 1st level spell slot you devour, is one less shield. Maybe second levels? But, hold person can be clutch as well. Or an Enhance Ability to do some utility.Sure, devour all those shields and enhance abilities you could have cast, and you can get four Banishments. But is that really worth it? Banishment might take a single enemy out of the fight, but Shield can protect you from ten incoming attacks and prevent dozens of damage you might have taken.Wrong again, at least about warlocks. Boons are an integral part of their design. A pact of the Blade opens them up to gishing, pact of the tome gives them more spells and rituals, pact of the chain makes them a pet class. This defines the warlock you are playing to a large extent. And it is interesing you want to compare them at the level they are. Becuase at level 3 most classes get their sublcass, which is a major decision point. And I would certainly say that deciding if you are a champion or an Eldritch knight is defining moment for the fighter class. Plus, Font of magic cannot be the defining trait of the sorcerer, it cannot be. Because Font of Magic's only use at level 2 is to make a single 1st level spell slot. The exact same as the Wizard's Arcane Recovery. And as we have shown, for the majority of the levels between 2nd and 10th, a sorcerer who only uses Font of magic to increase their spell slots for the day is gaining the same number of spells as the Wizard's Arcane recovery. The "defining feature" of the sorcerer does nothing more than make them a crappy wizard. Unless they take the Devil's bargain, rip away their low slots and cast a few more big slots. Can they do "fine" that way? Sure. But if that was the design intent, why not just give them higher level slots all the time and let them break them into smaller ones? Why make the conversion rate so that a 1st level slot turned into points does not come back out as a 1st level slot if you turn those same number of points back?As I showed in my breakdown, they do not get more spell slots until 8th level or higher. Until then it is equal.So, if font of magic is supposed to give you more spell slots than arcane recovery, it fails. And the bonus action is nice, I won't say it isn't. But if you want to pull off, say, turning two 2nd level spells and a 1st level spell into a 3rd level spell. That takes 4 bonus actions. Again, this is great if you aren't in combat and don't need it right now. But if you do, then, not so great.Well, if you don't care about class balance that is fine. In fact that is perfect. That way if we ever get WoTC to change it to be better balanced, you still won't care. Win WinThat is the start of the argument in a nutshell. We can only use Font of Magic or use Metamagic. You can't get both. But then it gets worse. You have to account for the fact that wizard's get ritual casting. +1 for themYou also have to account for the fact that close to half of the subclass abilities for sorcerers also use Sorcery Points, meaning you now have a third source of strain on the single pool -1 for sorcerers especially since Wizard's do not have this limitation on their subclass abilities. (For a quick list Elemental Resilience and Draconic Prescence for Dragon, Bend Luck for the Wild Sorcerer, Empowered Healing for Divine, Eyes of the Dark's darkness, Hound if Ill Omen, and Umbral form for Shadow) And then you have the problems with metamagic itself.</blockquote>

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