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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Asisreo" data-source="post: 8002389" data-attributes="member: 7019027">Let's stop you right here and appreciate the fact that you completely glossed over the fact the wizard only had one choice to use it's resource, but a sorcerer had 2. The sorcerer gets the wizard's recovered spell and an extra metamagic? Sounds like a buff to me.Huh, same as the wizard. Let's take a break right here to discuss ritual casting: what can you do? At this point, you have 10 spells in your spellbook. You cannot replace a spell with another one, you're committed to the spells you chose. You can also have 10 spells prepared, so basically you have every spell you know prepared. The thing about ritual spells is that they take up what you could've chosen for a different, more useful spell. If you choose "magic mouth" as a ritual, you are stuck with that ritual rather than any other 2nd-level spell you could've chosen. 10 is a big list, yes, but it's still not the biggest list of spells. In fact, Druids and Clerics have you tied for spells prepared and they have full access to all their spell class list, not just the ones they has to choose out. They also have ritual casting. Even Arcane Recovery isn't unique since Druids get Natural Recovery. Wizards have the largest spell list, but they don't have the most access to it. Even a sorcerer doesn't have to commit to their spells. If they realize Hold Person isn't doing anything for them, they can switch out their spells on level up. Wizards can prepare spells, but they cannot change what they put in their spellbook without DM fiat. Wrong. The sorcerer gets access to a fourth level spellslot. Yes, they can make spell slots larger than they can know, for the purposes of upcasting.I like how you use Quicken as a metric as if it's the gods' most sacred metamagic ever. Quicken only lets you do a cantrip on top of your action. Maybe dodge or hide if you're in that kind of position. Quicken isn't all that great. If anything, you should checking out twin. Twin lets you concentrate on 2 targets.sigh... wrong. Again. A sorcerer can make a 5th level spell slot. Did you just forget they can make higher level spells? Or did you just not read me?Yeah, sure. If for some reason, the sorcerer felt compelled to quicken, if he even has that metamagic, then he can't recover just as much until level 8. Well, good thing the sorcerer isn't some sort of quicken addict that can tell when a spell isn't worth quickening. This leads back into my point that wizards are way more static than people seem to realize. You can't change spells on level up, you can't replace low level spells (not the slots, the actual spells) with more high level spells, you can't change what your ritual spells are. There isn't even that many good ritual spells, you can have unseen servant, find familiar, detect magic, identify. None of these have combat applications either. Wizards have access to more unique spells, except bards have access to every spell in every class. Not hiding anything. I'm showing you the plain truth that you want to cover. You can't compare metamagic to anything. It's value fluctuates, just like anything else with a resource. The value of a material fluctuates based on whether someone needs it. A cereal company has no use for quartz but a watch company might want one. Whether a spell is valuable also fluctuates, depending on the campaign. It's why some wizards have mage armor & magic missile while another has burning hands and shield. Mmm, no. They can cast more powerful spells than a wizard starting at level 6. Font of magic has one-and-only-one use: converting spells. That's what font of magic is. That's all font of magic is. You haven't proven anything, you just listed an incorrect list of what wizards can recover and what sorcerers can recover. Lol, hold person can fall off when you fight anything that isn't humanoid. Plus, it's a wis save they can repeat. This whole "but my shield..." argument is precisely what I'm trying to get across to you. I don't know if hypothetical sorcerer man needs 4 banishments. He might need 4 Dimension Doors. Or he might need 4 Polymorphs. Or he might need a grand total of 0 4th level spells for his whole career and guess what? He can turn those unnecessary 4th level spells into 2 1st-level spells each. If shield is so important, a sorcerer can cast it 27 times a day maximum. Don't ask me if a sorcerer will need that, because there's no way for me to know that given 0 context. But the fact they can cast shield that many times at 10th level while a wizard can only cast it 20 times maximum with exactly the same type of resource expenditure, that means something. But would you call your pact boon your "defining trait" as a warlock? Would you tout it around as if it's what made you so special? I don't know, maybe you would. But I would lean into my invocations and my spell slot short rest mechanism. So that would mean sorcerers get their defining feature at level 1 because they get to choose a subclass then. It can't be because...a wizard has arcane recovery? Which takes a short rest while a font of magic can be a candid decision? And that's your assertion why font of magic can't be a defining feature even though it can completely change the way anyone can use the class?You're so evocative with your "devil's bargain" bit like casting higher level spells at the cost of lower level spell slots will remove your soul and sacrifice your firstborn child. They can go the opposite way, too, which is why there's a whole conversion thing. You can turn a 4th level spell into 2 1st level spells as you seen before. So you have more opportunities opened up to you. Except it doesn't. You kept using quicken to artificially take away sorcery points and reduce spell level when it's perfectly valid to have actually wanted to just subtle spell or distant a spell. You literally get both. You can legitimately have both font of magic and metamagic on the same turn at level 3, as soon as it's possible. It's not that small of a resource. Oh no! More choices in my spellcasting class! Ah! The horror! If only I could just choose when I do things. What? They stole your lunch money? People compare Careful to Evocation wizard as if choosing a whole subclass wasn't a big commitment. It's decent if you want to keep someone out of cloud of daggers or Web or Fear or if you want to protect yourself. Or if you're doing a particularly nasty AoE. Distant is good for touch spells like cure wounds or spells with limited distance like suggestion which requires you to be within "move and hit" distance; it also fiddles with those "in range" type spells like teleport and mass suggestion. Empowered is really good with AoE's since they increase the damage shared; an empowered fireball hits roughly 4 targets and those rerolls turns 1s and 2s into much better damage pee target. Extend is good when you are casting a spell you need for long periods right before finishing a long rest. You can cast extend mage as armor 1 minute before a long rest and have mage armor the entirety of the rest of the day until the next long rest. Also, delayed blast fireball's maximum damage increases by another 10d6 at the price of 1 sorcery point.Heightened is amazing at higher levels, which is where I'd recommend picking it up as your third or fourth metamagic. When creatures have high saves, granting disadvantage on a 7th or 8th level spell can be devastating, and at that point, you probably have more sorcery points than you know how to use. Apparently you like quickened so much, so we'll leave it be (even though it isn't that amazing imo). Subtle is great in social situations and against a counterspell guy. Twinned is amazing, it lets you concentrate on two of the same effects at once; things like Haste and Polymorph are classic but you can twin Banishment or Hold Monster.</blockquote>

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