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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MostlyHarmless42" data-source="post: 8002468" data-attributes="member: 6845520">And so you completely ignore my words because of it? You keep harping that "we can't just white room math this!" How is this for non-quantiative data then? I have had multiple players across multiple group in completely different social circles all express similar complaints regarding the sorcerer class that both myself and Chaosmancer have expressed. NONE of them were the sort to min/max characters or ever visit internet forums such as these. There is also a reason why we keep seeing multiple threads discussing the same topic over and over again in far greater frequency than any other class except the ranger (which suffers similar poor design issues) or those god awful "where's the warlord?!" threads.Even the "official" sorcerer guides out there acknowledge that every element of dragon sorcerer other than fire and lightning is a trap, all praise devine soul, dismiss wild magic as too DM dependent, and label every other build aside from a social manipulator build as lackluster at best.I'm not saying the sorcerer is completely broken. It is still salvageable. I am saying I've had more than 3 players all choose warlock, wizard, or cleric and the two who did try it were ALWAYS complaining they didn't have enough spell points. I run two or three encounters days in games. That they were running on fumes in such situations is quite telling. I am also saying that I've now had a character actually playtesting some of these proposed changes and she is by no means outshining the other characters by any means.So go ahead and be dismissive if you wish, I am hardly fanatical about the sorcerer and entirely agree with chaosmancer that it is kind of frustrating and unfun that the sorcerer is basically forced to choose which abilities they get to use each day when no other class has this issue. I specifically made that point BECAUSE someone did the direct comparison (one which I actually take issues with, but I was using their framework to make a point) of metamagic + font of magic == arcane recovery + extra spells access in which they stated that they were counting the spell points for both metamagic and spell generation use. Said person completely neglecting to do a further analysis of class features and conveniently left their class comparison incomplete because the rest of that logic hurt their case. If spell points are to be used for font of magic and metamagic (which again THEY stated they were), we still have to address that wizards get on average two to three limited use abilities each such as Portents, Bladdancing, Arcane Ward, Chronal Shift, Power Surge, Instinctive Charm and Hypnotic Gaze. All of these features have some sort of limiting mechanic that follows D&D 5e mechanical use rules in some form or another. What none of them do is take away from a wizard's ability to cast spells or use any of their other features; they each have their own unique use tracking.The sorcerer meanwhile has to use spell points not just for metamagic and extra spell slots, but also quite often subclass features as well. Again I reiterate, if that was the design intent from the get go, fine. But then I make the argument that sorcerers do NOT have enough spell points per long rest, and I question then why some origins don't rely on their use for some of their features. You are welcome to disagree and that is fine. You are welcome to that opinion. I prefer to seek feedback from those who actually wish to figure out clear options to house rule and discuss their merits and weaknesses (you know, the original purpose of this thread?). I have provided my suggestions and their actual playtest results for precisely that purpose. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion here, just pointing out that Chaosmancer's opinions are NOT unique and others DO in fact share them. Do not be so quick to dismiss them in what is largely a subjective subject anyway. At the end of the day what I care about is multiple of my players telling me the sorcerer looks lackluster, not what the damn napkin math suggests.</blockquote>

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