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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8002590" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Yep, they could either keep up with the wizard. Or actually be a sorcerer. Such a wonderful choice for the sorcerer to make.Yes, it is so kind that they could use their class features at least once without falling behind.So, first off, wrong. A 5th level wizard has 14 spells in their spellbook, minimum. More if they were able to find any spell scrolls or other spellbooks. And this mistake shows when you start talking about prepared spells. A wizard at 5th level can probably prepare nine spells. But, they can cast ritual spells without preparing them, if they have say, three ritual spells (find familiar, detect magic, identify) this means that they have effectively twelve spells prepared. This is the advantage they have over Druids and Clerics, who must have their ritual spells prepared to be able to use them. The only reason Clerics can keep up is because they have their domain spells which are pre-selected.A sorcerer at 5th level? 6 spells known, half that number. To get 12 spells known they would have to wait til they are level Eleven. And yes, swapping a spell on level up sounds great. It is also frankly nessecary because with so few spells known, you can't afford to keep spells that are not performing. A wizard might be stuck with sleep as one of their 44 spells known for their entire career. A sorcerer has to get rid of it by third level if they want to stay even close to competitive.Twin also has a scaling cost. Twin a cantrip, 1 point and cost less than Quicken. Twin Haste and that costs 3 points which is more than Quicken.I'm using Quicken because it has a stable cost, matches a known value (a first level spell slot) and is an average of other metamagics. If I was using Twin I would have to account for what I am twinning. Heighten costs more, subtle less. I was trying to show a trend, not need to post a spreadsheet.And if they don't use any metamagics, why are you bothering to play a sorcerer? Also, "no combat application" doesn't matter. I've got a Druid who learned Unseen Servant and used it to break into a warehouse and assist me in stealing from our target. Combat power does not equal story power. And as anyone should be able to tell you, that is half the game. A half of the game that wizards dominate compared to sorcerers in terms of spells.Is that why you want to dismiss it as not worth talking about? Because it can't be compared to anything else? Well, then I present to you a more succinct argument. Metamagic can't be compared to anything, which makes its value higher than any spell slot you could create. Therefore, the sorcerer should do metamagic instead of making spells. Except, you are insisting that they should make spells, that that is where their real power is, beatings wizards who don't get a short rest.I was a little off when copying your list, so what. You seem to have not read the class ability. Font of Magic gives you sorcerery points and tells you that they can be used for "a variety of magical effects". It then tells you you can convert points into spell slots or slots into points. And why might you want to do that. Because Metamagic costs points, your only other class ability in the entire game. If font of magic, the source of sorcerery points, isn't meant to be considered along with metamagic, the classes ability to use sorcerery points, then why would it be designed this way?Banishment, Polymorph and Dimension door? That means you are 8th level and have six other spells. Oh, Shield. So you have five other spells. You are trying to sell this narrative that sorcerers are this hyper flexible class that can do anything. They can do metamagic (limited to 2 for most of their career and only a few times per day), they can make more spell slots (only slightly more than the wizard if they give up on all metamagic), they can get all the high level spells (if they get rid of all low level spells) they can get all low level spells (if they get rid of all high level spells) But the truth is, they have to stay in their lane. They have to pick one of those options and stick with it, they can't alter their path later on in the day. They Twinned haste in a fight and lost concentration. Now they can't make as many spell slots, they can't get as many high spells, they can't make as many low spells. They made a call, and now they are behind on every other metric. Meanwhile, the wizard is "Static" like you said, like every other caster is. They have their spells per day and nothing they do will alter that. They have their class abilites and nothing they do will alter that. Using one doesn't turn off the other. But it does for sorcerers.You keep acting like short rests are unicorns. They are not that hard to come by. And, if a wizard in a single short rest can match the daily exertions of a Sorcerer who is not using their metamagic... then yeah, you aren't completely changing how the sorcerer plays, you are matching the wizard who took a nap.4th level spell costs six points. You have spent something worth six to get something worth four. If that sounds like a great deal to you maybe you can hand me a dollar and I'll give you back 75 cents. Those quarters can be more useful anyway if you happen to need them.And without quicken they were still only matching. I guess at 6th level I was off by one a few times. But still, you aren't getting more spell slots than wizards until then. If you are equal, you do not have more.By doing what? Creating a first level spell and using Subtle? Congrats. You are out of daily points, and the wizard is ahead of you in spell slots by the end of the day. You have access to both, but using one cuts the other.Alright. Pick two. From third to tenth level, for a single campaign, pick two of those. That is all you get. Is it more useful to twin haste, or use cure wounds (hi divine soul) at 30 ft range? Are you going to fight enough large groups of enemies to make empower at 5th level worth it, or should you take subtle so you can use those 3rd level spells in the royal court.Decide now, three levels before you even have access to those spells, what the plot is going to be so you can be most effective. Also, notice how you put Heighten as your third pick? That's because it is so expensive it is a horrid pick before then. If you are playing a campaign that is going to end my level 9, you will never see a single Heighten spell hit the table, because no one picks it. You want to know why we compare sculpt spell to Careful spell? Because metamagic is so limited it might as well be a subclass choice in and of itself, and the Wizard who wants to be good at evocation has a stronger version of your ability you can pay for at level 3 for free at level 2. /-/-/-/-/*-I just looked up at the clock and realized I've spent an hour and a half responding to this post. An hour and half dedicated to arguing with someone who is constantly deriding and mocking me. Over a subject I have debated time and time again for years. I have other responsibilities demanding my attention. I think I am done here.</blockquote>

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