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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7827844" data-attributes="member: 6750235">I was not a fan of the playtest gish sorc at all.[USER=6677017]@Sword of Spirit[/USER] In the OP you stated fire sorcs are fine and then stated you couldn't make your black dragon sorc theme, then seemed to contradict yourself later by adding features to the base class that have nothing to do with the reason fire sorcs are fine.  If fire sorcs are fine because of the spells available on the sorc list then the obvious solutions are reskinning fire spells or creating acid spells.  Divine soul being fine reaffirms this given the main benefit is a bigger spell list from which to choose.  If the issue indicated later is the base mechanics and shortage of spells creates an issue with the class then it would also apply to those two subclasses.  IE, the solution doesn't match up with the real issue because the real issue seems to only apply to specific themes instead of the class itself.This is how I would build a black dragon sorc, fwiw, to approximate your theme you seem to want.Sorcerer, variant human. Level Progression1 - Acid splash, infestation, prestidigitation, shape water, detect magic, identify; magic initiate (sorc) -- light, minor illusion, shield2 - Silent image3 - Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, alter self4 - Mage hand, darkness5 - Fear6 - Dispel magic7 - Vitriolic sphere8 - Charm monster9 - Insect plague10 - Heighten Spell, mold earth, far step11 - True seeing13 - Plane shift15 - Abi-Dalzim's horrid wilting17 - Subtle Spell, wishYou can upgrade silent image to phantasmal force or major image, keep it as is, or swap it for something else you might feel you need but you seemed to want illusions.  Using magic initiate sorc fills out the other cantrips you wanted nicely (and not having enough cantrips seems like a odd position anyway given sorcs have more than other casters).  It doesn't have plant growth but fear is by far the more iconic dragon ability and you didn't bother touching on it, even though the spell is decent and available much earlier than the 18th level bloodline ability.  Water breathing is covered by alter self.Low levels are being covered by cantrips or weapons for damage (your choice) much like most of the time anyway.  Adding in a couple magic missile attacks don't have that much impact but it's easy enough to tweek by swapping a spell here or there and still hold the basic theme.  I would give serious thought to dropping the illusions for clairvoyance or another divination.  It's a quick brainstorm on how I envision the theme and might not match others.  ;-)Few other points...<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You also mentioned bards have wish.  They don't.  They can add wish via secrets and that's not quite the same.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">You mentioned using quicken for mirror image in order to get defense up the first round.  That's an example of why metamagic is good.  Wizards lose that round in offense to put up the defensive spell while sorcs can add the defense and then pop off an attack cantrip.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The comparison for 3.5 spells known is was a bit misleading.  3.5 bard knew 29 spells (not including 0 level) and 9 types of songs by default.    Sorcerers knew 34 spells total (not including 0 level).  38 spell + songs > 34 spells.  Sorcs had more cantrips then too, much like now.  The point is sorcerers had less magical options than bards then too, not just now.  Just like then bards had more skill options too they do now.  5e isn't a new precedent here; it combined the features of bards to be more streamlined.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It doesn't matter how many spells a paladin knows if he or she doesn't have the slots available to cast them.  That's true for all spell casters.  Font of magic might be shared with metamagic but it's still an option far beyond paladins or clerics or bards or warlocks or paladins or most druids.  Wizards don't fall into that because they all have the short rest renewal but sorcs are better off than most casters in that regard.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Your comparison of sorcerous insight to magical secrets is misleading because restricting the classes to those classes isn't much of a restriction and bards don't get magical secrets until 10th level.  Starting it at first level and then saying it's weaker than the high level bard ability (when it's not really) doesn't hold much water.  It's granting 3 spells from almost any class before bards even get the ability.</li> </ul>I agree it's not easy to build a theme for a sorcerer sometimes.  As you can see, I added an extra 1st level spell and cantrips via a feat.Sometimes the theme also looks like trying to eat your cake and have it too.  For example, the comparison to 3.5 left out the part that those sorcerers didn't have metamagic by default (wizards had the free feats for it) and in 5e it's rather exclusive to the class.  It's like you want to add a past trait and also keep the current upgrades.   ;-)Having said that, I'm disagreeing with your premise and solution a bit, but not your dissatisfaction with the 5e version.  WotC can't please everyone and the class can be hard to work around a theme as I agree.  I also allow players to request thematic spells from other classes that might match the bloodline concepts on a case by case basis for sorcerers.  It would be nice to have more acid spells and that's something I would look at as a solution.Feedback on your house rules...Sorcerous insight is too early.  Sorcerer spells known isn't far behind spells prepped or compared to other arcane casters and they are ahead in cantrips.  It's high level where they really fall behind and that's fixable by continuing the spells known progression.  That seems more suitable to getting the spells known when they would be more applicable to the gap.Metamagic addendum is more complex than it needs to be.  It also favors high point cost meta's like heighten or twin.  Using twin for free on a high level spell seems ridiculous to me.  It's becomes more open to abuse as more single-target spells become available, which is compounded by sorcerous insight and one of the reasons given for restricting sorc spells in the first place.  Twin is already one of the favorite meta options.  Adding CHA mod to sorc points is a better tweak if you think it's needed.Metamagic affinity seems like it's too much.  However, spell mastery is also pretty powerful so if you add affinity the time to do it would be at a similar level.</blockquote>

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