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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1378777" data-attributes="member: 2167">Ok, mass reply!Thank you all for replies and comments – I will try to answer everything. Wow this is gonna take a while… <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />(PS: I am not going to quote who said what because a lot of the topics overlap and I want to answer each “topic” not necessarily every reply to that topic. Also take what is said with a grain of salt, as I am merely expressing my thoughts and concerns and trying to find what works for the majority.)I agree with this. The “Spell Paths” (default name for now) will be similar to domains in that they will be detailed as to how they work in the class description, but the “details” of each Spell Path will be detailed as a “separate” section.Domains only grant 1 power, and they are gained at 1st level. I do like the ideas presented here and I think it can be used for the base ideal I wish to keep – which is a mechanic that allows a “Non-Heredity” oriented sorcerer as well as a “Heredity” oriented sorcerer.  The only hard part is making the two balance since Heredity oriented sorcerers gain a few more Flavor Mechanics than a “Generic” sorcerer such as the bonus language, etc.The way I am seeing the choice is this.  At 1st Level you must make a decision as do Clerics (and Monks & Rangers), as to what path you want to follow: Heredity or Non-Heredity (Generic cleric or Specific Religion). From their you choose the specific path (Cleric chooses specific domains). I tried to make Non-Heredity have a path choice as well, to balance the Heredity choice. Thus your choice string would be:Non-Heredity: Specialist Sorcerer or Domain SorcererHeredity: Child of Magic or Child of Nature, or etc.Well, I am not worried about complicated efforts as can be seen by the whole thread. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />With that said, I have to say that I don’t think one ability at 1st, 5th and 15th is enough to help balance the sorcerer. In my analysis of class abilities, I think its obvious that the sorcerer not only lacks flavor and individuality, but it lacks in utility and power. Now as for spells - granted they cast more spells than anyone else but not by that much, balance that with very limited utility of spells known and I feel that the sorcerer’s spellcasting is actually rather balanced with every other class, especially the cleric and specialist wizard.  Add to this - magic items like pearls of power, scrolls, wands, etc. (which is part of the wizard’s design as they are the only class to include an item creation option as a class ability) and the playing field balances even more. Wizards by design are meant to have an arsenal of spells and wands as part of their “core balance” just as Rangers and Druids are “balanced” based on the assumption that they have an animal companion.Class………Ave. Maximum Spells Per Day…|…Ave Spells Known…|…PreparationCleric………………….5.6/SL…………………….22 / SL……………….Prepared / No FailDruid………………….4.7/SL……………………..17 / SL……………….Prepared / No FailCore Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………….4 / SL…………………Unprepared / FailWizard………………...4/SL……………………….37 / SL……………….Prepared / FailSpecialist Wizard……..5/SL………………………..***………………….. Prepared / Fail*** As Wizard minus restricted School(s) otherwise still unlimited arcana.Alt.Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………4.6 / SL…………Unprepared / UndecidedCLASS ABILITIES(Class Abilities {Special column} but counts Spells as a single Class Ability. Counts iterations of an ability as separate abilities where Iterations are such things as stacking Sneak Attacks. Does not count weapon and armor proficiency feats.)Cleric = 5 abilities (including spontaneous swapping)Druid = 25 abilities (including spontaneous swapping; 17 without iterations)Core Sorcerer = 2 abilitiesWizard = 7 abilitiesBarbarian = 24 abilities (9 without iterations)Bard = 15 abilities (12 without iterations)Fighter = 11 abilitiesMonk = 33 abilities (includes AC increase and speed; 25 without iterations)Paladin = 19 abilities (11 without iterations)Ranger = 18 abilitiesRogue = 24 abilities (10 without iterations)The average number of class abilities:Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations).Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)Your suggestion of an ability @ 1,5,15 would up the sorcerer to 4 abilities. Even if we consider spellcasting to be 2 abilities because it is more powerful than other classes, its only 5 abilities. Even the other Pure Casters, Wizard included have a minimum average of 10. A cleric has only 5 but has better, armor, better HD, better melee skills, better saves, better skills, etc. I agree with Spell-Like abilities on the whole if for no other reason it forces the need for Psionic-Like Thematics, which is adding more rules to the class that are unnecessary. Its cool, but unnecessary for a Core build. For an advanced class – maybe.  As for those that argue characters don’t get Spell-Like Abilities, that is an incorrect assumption. Many Races and PrC’s grant them as well as the Cleric, Bard, and Paladin core classes – just not as the main “magic” system. Thus I am conceding the point that the sorcerers “spells” should not be all spell-like abilities. With that said, I do still like the idea of having them acquire a few true innate spell-like abilities over time: Currently 4 by 20th level in “Option 2”.  However, I am thinking of limiting the choice of spells for these abilities as follows: “This spell-like ability becomes a ‘Personal’ target spell regardless of the spell’s original target(s).”  Thoughts?On the innate casting, as you suggest I am leaning toward giving Eschew material as a permanent ability/restriction to the Sorcerer’s spellcasting. This grants them a more “innate” casting feeling rather than the arcane “formulae” and more alchemical feeling to casting that Wizard’s have. On one hand it is a boon because it does away with material components. It is a restriction because it now Bans all spells form the spell list that require a material component over 1gp.1st: Identify2nd: Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Leomund’s Trap, Magic Mouth3rd: Illusory Script, Nondetection, Sepia Snake Sigil4th: Animate Dead, Arcane Eye, Fire Trap, Scrying, Stoneskin5th: False Vision, Magic Jar, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Sleep6th: Analyze Dweomer, Circle of Death, Contingency, Create Undead, Legend Lore, Repulsion, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Persuasion, Tenser's Transformation, True Seeing, Undeath to Death, Wall of Iron7th: Drawmij’s Instant Summons, Forcecage, Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen’s Sword, Project Image, Scrying (Greater), Simulacrum, Symbol of Stunning, Symbol of Weakness, Vision8th: Binding, Clone, Protection from Spells, Symbol of Death, Symbol of Insanity, Sympathy, Temporal Stasis, Trap the Soul9th: Astral Projection, Refuge, Shapechange, Teleportation CircleWhile I love the way you put the description and it makes perfect sense. There is only one problem, if for no other reason, this is a no-no as the flavor text is Non-OGL, assuming I understand the OGL/D20 agreement correctly.  If I am wrong on this, please point out the section/subsection of the OGL I missed. Keeping to the OGL is very important to me as I am not looking to simply build a House Ruled sorcerer. I am looking to build something that “could” eventually see print.We can create “Khaalis’s Players Handbook” and use the Sorcerer class and change the mech all we want, as it is OGL, but we cant touch the Flavor Text as it is Non-OGL. Other than that, I could technically name this class “Hedge Wizard” and write any text I wish with mech to match and we would be home free. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Unfortunately we are bound to the flavor text if we want to “fix” the mech for the existing class.As seen in the analysis above, I don’t see the class as being overpowered by the addition of class abilities and have I looked into this a lot. Not only do class abilities make the sorcerer unique from a wizard, but it balances the class to the rest of the core classes in utility and sheer ability.The average number of class abilities:Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations).Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)Even if we sell ourselves short and compare against Only the pure casters, sell even shorter and remove the Druid. The Cleric and Wizard average 6 Class Abilities.  Even if we count the Sorcerer’s spell power as 2 class abilities (which I feel is unwarranted as they are not that far ahead of the other classes, especially the cleric) that still leaves room for 4 more class abilities.  As I have stated, I don’t think Druid should be ignored, but I DO feel that it skews the results. Which is why in my build I have only granted a total of 9 abilities (10 if you want to count spells as 2), which balances them to the other caster classes.On skills:The only issue I have with your assessment on Gather Info and Sense Motive is that by following the logic, to make the Sorcerer match the description, you are saying that all sorcerers must Know divination spells? As someone else mentioned – a sorcerer should not be forced to choose specific spells to perform a base function of the class as it is described.The sorcerer can use spells to augment ANY of their functions but not necessarily rely specifically on them to do a task.  Being a diplomat, negotiator and front to the party involves more than just diplomacy. Bluff, gather info and sense motive are just as much a part of the schema – that’s what the Front to a party is for, its their job. As for Bluff, the 3.5 sorcerer includes it because as I said earlier, it is part of the whole diplomat, spy, front flavor text. Intimidate I usually have an issue with (even though I have included it due to people’s arguments) because as written, the sorcerer is charismatic but not what one would consider intimidating.  I can see an argument for no Gather Info but on the same hand I consider this a big part of being a face for the party. The argument to include it falls within the Bard. The Bard has a slew of mind-affecting abilities designed to influence people – yet they still get the core skill. Magic is not always the answer.As for stepping on the Bard’s toes: Bards should NOT hold the monopoly on Charismatic interaction. Clerics, Paladins, Rogues and Sorcerers should all just as easily be able to fill the Charismatic role if they so choose.  Not to mention pure ability - Bards are much more than social – they also gain the following skills that sorcerers don’t: Appraise, Balance, Climb, Decipher Script, Disguise, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and last but not least, and the most key ability of all, and what truly defines the Bard’s niche – Knowledge (All). And the Bard Still gets more skill points than the alt.sorcerer.How does this step on the bard’s toes?Actually they start with 6 Cantrips and 2 1st, then 2 spells per level.Thus Known Spells by 20th level: Core Sorcerer = 43 vs. Alt.Sorcerer = 46That’s only a gain of 3 spells known. If you include the Spell Path, that’s a total of 13 more known spells by 20th level than the Core sorcerer. Is that really so much more powerful?  That just brings the sorcerer to be comparable to a wizard who only has a spellbook with their Free spells in it, and that never once scribed a spell into the books. Such a wizard with nothing but free spells knows ALL Cantrips (19 PHB), and 41 Spells + INT modifier in 1st-9th level spells (so: Wizard = 60+INT mod. spells (+anything they scribe) vs. Sorcerer = 59 spells).  Still seems pretty even to me, but that just my opinion. Anyone else?First thing – great list of ideas.1) Thought this is a creative idea, I personally hate Intelligent items. With that said, if the idea had enough support I would think about, though if there was ever something that could imbalance a game – Intelligent Items/Artifacts are it.2) I have in the past used:Power Manipulation: The sorcerer may increase the potency of the spells they shape, adding up to their Charisma modifier in effective caster levels for determining spell effects. The drawback to this, is that the sorcerer sustains 1d4 points of physical damage and 1d4 points of subdual damage per additional effective level of increased potency.3) This is something similar to the Spell Path abilities. Receiving a permanent metamagic feat might be fitting.4) What do you mean by enhance items? Similar to the “Weapon Channel” ability in the first post?5) Though blood magic is a great topic, it generally evolves into a whole magical system unto itself. Not sure we wish to tackle that for a core class revision.6) How does this differ from spells? Are you saying some form of a Spell-Like Ability that mimics buff spells or Bardic Morale bonuses?7) I commented on this one in your thread.8) I plan to use the Bonus Language aspect for certain sorcerer paths.9) I like this idea, though it really gets into the whole Spellfire debate. Though it could be developed into a minor form of spell slot regeneration or limited self-healing.Thoughts?This is a discussion I haven’t even gotten to yet. What are people’s feeling on this?  Allowing light armor simply removes the non-proficiency penalty to all actions, it does not effect casting. Without granting Light armor, the sorcerer can still technically wear Leather and Padded with no penalty since it has no Armor Check Penalty.  However, anyone who has ever worn any kind of armor knows that a chain shirt is actually easier to wear than Padded or what the PHB described as Leather Armor (which is more of a plate-mail style of hardened leather plates over soft leather under armor). Allowing Light armor just means the sorcerer can also wear a chain shirt without armor check penalty to all actions.As for ASF, since the sorcerer is not casting in the same manner as a wizard, channeling magic and going through the same kind of somatics, and their magic is innate, should they be able to overcome the ASF on light armor?Thoughts, comments, rebuttals?</blockquote>

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