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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1383117" data-attributes="member: 2167">MASS REPLY 3From fuindordmAnd I find this to be a specifically campaign/DM orientation. If the party ever only does 1 type of thing, such as hunt 1 type of creature, or just dungeon crawls, then I fully agree with this assessment. However, in many of the games I have run and played in over the years I find this very untrue in a “broad” campaign setting. On one adventure the wizard may be all about slaying and have his favorite 4 spells per level, yet on another adventure it may all be about stealth, guile and information gathering, while on yet another it may be a planar jaunt. All 3 require an entirely different selection of spell-sets.  While the wizard can easily and happily switch his skill sets from need to need – guess what?  If the Sorcerer is a one-trick pony in only 1 of those 3 scenarios, he basically becomes worthless to the party for the other 2 scenarios. And that’s only 3 scenarios off the top of my head. I could come up with even more if I tried hard enough leaving the sorcerer even farther in the dust.I can understand not wanting the sorcerer to overbalance the Wizard, but I honestly feel that gaining 13 more spells over 20 levels versus a Wizard’s Unlimited Arcana is not even close to overpowering. As for other goodies – that we will see as the class fills out more. As I have tried to show, in pure statistics the class is vastly underpowered as it is. If a DM caters to the sorcerer then yes they can shine, but as I said in a well rounded campaign setting more times than not the sorcerer is left out in the cold with nothing to fall back on.One step ahead of you - this is already an ability that only one of the Lineages gets – general. I would like to know where you come by the “in my mind one of the most fundamental principles of real-world magical practice and thinking”. Before making this a long reply and letting myself Hijack the thread to an unrelated topic – we might want to think about splitting this topic off to another more appropriate board. I will quickly state, however, that I have done some study of magic/theology from all over the world and I would have to say that I most strongly disagree with this statement. This only focuses one aspect of “magik” – alchemy and its ilk. Most other magics rely more on spiritual focuses like a Cleric’s holy symbol, such as the voodoo doll, the athum, etc. etc.Ok. Some decent statements and ideas here. One thing I will say though is that I do not really want to see the sorcerer “change” into something at 20th level unless it uses the core mechanic example of “Perfect Self” from the Monk. Otherwise that type of ability falls to the prevue of the PrC, and we can evaluate that later as the end result of a Lineage PrC. As for the spell-like abilities/class abilities. You need to give an example as to the way it will falls out on the progression. Keep in mind I do not want to go over 10 class abilities to maintain balance with the other classes.  As for Spell-like abilities (and this applies to Al’s comments too) - only getting 4 spell-likes to max 3rd level isn’t very much. Is a 3rd level spell-like ability even worth it to take 20 levels of Sorcerer? I think not.What kind of lineage abilities are you referring to?Currently what I am looking at the following spread of 10 abilities:1….. Lineage, Spells (+ disadvantage of Aura)2….. Innate Ability (0)4….. Arcane Sense6….. Innate Ability (1st)10… Lineage Ability11… Innate Ability (2nd)15… Innate Ability (3rd)16… Lineage Ability20… Innate Ability (4th)Some ideas I was toying with the table above…GENERAL SORCERERLineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with magic grows over time. At 10th level the sorcerer gains spell resistance equal to the sorcerer’s class level. At 16th level the sorcerer’s spell resistance increases to 10+ the sorcerer’s class level.CELESTIAL SORCERERLineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with their celestial lineage grows over time. At 10th level the sorcerer gains a permanent celestial aura as a supernatural ability that provides a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws. It also functions in the same manner as a protection from evil spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.  At 16th level the sorcerer’s celestial aura improves to provide a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws, to themselves and all those within 10’ of the sorcerer.  It also functions in the same manner as a magic circle against evil spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.Healing will remain the special perk to the Divine Receptacle lineage, and it will be based on worship. I really don’t want to break the fundamental balance of arcane casters don’t heal on a wide range. Though I do like your suggestions above (though I think you accidentally swapped true sight and planar ally and missed 7th level) . Keep in mind though that “celestials” are not clerics. They are embodiments of good and the champions of that cause.I would like to hear some other opinions on the healing spells.  Also keep in mind that with the way we are developing this – people will change these spell lists left-and-right.This was taken right from UA, but I agree to dropping it in light of all else they gain. From Stalker0I will fix that tonight by posting what I have so far as the main class mechanic and the few Lineages that are formed as examples.Does this edit help clarify?“Gain one metamagic feat of choice from either: Eschew Materials, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability). This metamagic feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect any lineage spell (and only lineage spells) the sorcerer knows, a number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. The maximum level of spell to which a caster can apply a metamagic feat is equal to the maximum spell level they are capable of casting, minus the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. If the result of this calculation is less than 0, then that metamagic feat cannot be used on any of the sorcerer's spells. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, or even the same metamagic effect more than once (if allowed by the feat's description). However, to determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats. The Heighten Spells feat may be used to increase a spell's effective level (for purpose of save DC's and so on) up to the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. The spell is treated as a spell of that level for purposes of save DC and similar effects, but does not require a higher level spell slot.1) The only issue with this is that we are arguing the “correctness” of the Heighten feat’s design. I will think on this, but since the ability is being used verbatim from the official text, I am not sure I want to tinker with it, especially when I agree with the concept overall. Why shouldn’t an 18th level sorcerer with their “innate spell shaping” be able to make a 1st level spell harder to resist?2) What do you mean here? The ones listed on the table are +0 and +1 spell level feats and it states “ (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability)”.   Does this need to be re-worded?To answer this, it is dependant on the lineage. Only the “General Sorcerer” will have the List to choose from for “Lineage Spells”.  The others will be more restricted such as the Celestial example. It gains a Lineage Spell List, but it also gains the benefit of allowing them to choose spells from specific “non-Wizard” spells.  As for Nature, they will also receive a specific Lineage Spell list. This is currently looking like 0-Know Direction and then Summon Natures Ally I-IX. Then they will also be able to choose any Druid spell (ie – including healing) as a sorcerer spell. The flip side is that they cannot learn Necro magic that controls or creates undead, as undead do not belong to the natural order.Again, I will post an updated “overview” to make it easier to see.  Also – the free metamagic as stated earlier is only for the General Sorcerer.The innate spell-like abilities will likely remain in some form unless a better list of class abilities can be agreed upon. Spell-like Abilities are more than just more spells-per day, they:1) Free up a spell known slot for another spell of choice but retain the flavor of the sorcerer’s thematic element, and2) They are spell-like – thus no components, no arcane failure, etc. Imagine a Sorcerer with Knock as a spell-like ability? Only way to imprison this person is to place them in an anti-magic field. Binding hands, taking away components, gagging – doesn’t matter. Its an at-will ability.As for the power-level factor, I agree on the 0-level thing. The more I look at it the more I think they should start at 1st level, maybe this especially since arcane sense IS a 0-level spell-like. And when it comes down to it, how many people could care less about being able to cast say Light 3 times per day. Woo-Hoo…. Not! Most people don’t use their Cantrips for anything more than Prestidigitation the most useful of all Cantrips, and Detect Magic.1….. Lineage, Spells (+ disadvantage of Aura)2….. Arcane Sense4….. Lineage Ability6….. Innate Ability (1st)10… Lineage Ability11… Innate Ability (2nd)15… Innate Ability (3rd)16… Lineage Ability20… Innate Ability (4th)I have thought about the virtual metamagic feats – but this would only apply to the General Lineage. I also do not want to just assign “Bonus Metamagic Feat” at X number of levels or we are back to being a clone of the wizard. In the afore mentioned table they get a mix of the innate and lineage specific abilities. Is this more acceptable?Personally I still disagree. Armor does not make bard flavor. Baric Knowledge and Music and the jack-of-all-trades give bards flavor. The Bard is a Hybrid caster just like Rangers and Paladins. Bard is to Wizard as Ranger is to Druid as Paladin is to Cleric. Its get armor because it is supposed to be a melee/caster hybrid.  Also keep in mind though I am giving the Sorcerer Light Armor proficiency I am NOT removing Arcane Spell Failure. All this ability does is remove the Non-Proficiency penalty to all other abilities (which is loop-holed by Padded and Leather Armor anyway).Well lets try to make this semi-official from the posters to date…For (11): Khaalis, Grayhawk, Fuindordm, Afrodyte, Stormborn, Knight_Errant, Buttercup, Eolin, Shades, Handforged, SeasongAgainst (7): Stalker0, Maggot, Al'Kelhar, Vrylakos, Urbannen, Tuzenbach, SonofapreachermanIf I missed any or placed in the wrong slot – sorry – it’s a lot of posts…We will keep this out for Vote still but I can concede no armor especially when in all technicality they can already wear Half-of Light-Armor category without penalty anyway. From Al'KelharThanks. Never seen YMMV as an acronym before. As for statistics – they are your friend. Personally I think they should be used a bit more often in design balance.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />They still can be thematic, yet can be ancestral as well. The suggestions are be no means exhaustive. They are the core samples (like domains) that can be expanded upon at will.For example lets make a new one on the fly. We’ll use one of Buttercup’s favorites: The Gypsy SorcererGYPSY FAMILY LINEAGE: The Gypsy Family heritage is a deep lineage where a sorcerer comes from a long line of talented “true gypsies” or “gypsy seers”. The innate sorcerous talent is passed on in one or more offspring in a gypsy clan from generation to generation. Gypsy sorcerers have a strong innate understanding of magic's connection to the cosmos, and the families then train their offspring in all to do with the gypsy arts.Benefit: Gypsy sorcerers gain Knowledge (Religion) and Sleight of Hand as a class skills. They may also divine the future as per an augury (as the spell), as a spell-like ability, a number of times per day equal to 3+ the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier. However, unlike other spell-like abilities, this augury still requires the use of a fortune telling medium such as bones, tarot, crystal ball, etc. worth 25gp (as the spell) but does not require the use of incense. Gypsy sorcerers may learn any spell of the Divination designator regardless of the spell list from which it comes as well as any spell with the Compulsion descriptor.Special Limitation: Gypsy sorcerers, though adepts at divination and enchantment magic, they are also inept in areas of destruction. Gypsy sorcerer feel that purely destructive magic is an antithesis to the natural order and thus have no talent with harnessing evocation magic.Lineage Spells: The sorcerer has a specific affinity with gypsy magic which manifests in a Lineage Spell List. These lineage spells may never be changed through spell swapping or spell evolution. These lineage spells are gained as bonus known spells as soon as the sorcerer is able to cast spells of that spell level. The sorcerer gains the Gypsy Lineage spell list.Gypsy Lineage Spell List: 0–know direction; 1st-charm person; 2nd-detect thoughts; 3rd-clairaudience/clairvoyance; 4th-scrying; 5th-true seeing; 6th-gease/quest; 7th-insanity; 8th-power word stun; 9th-foresightLineage Abilities: Either two or three abilities related to the theme. (See chart options above)I understand where you are coming from, however… If this is how you really feel – then Monte’s Sorcerer from BoEM2 is fine for you (HD change, more skills, more skill points, reduced to its own spell-list). In my opinion after play-testing that build – it still lacks in flavor, versatility, uniqueness and balance. Especially when compared to most of the other classes – not just the Wizard. Too many people balance the sorcerer just against the wizard. In my view, that in-and-of-itself is unbalanced. When there are classes like the Rogue, Monk, Druid, etc. they have to put into the general balance equation. Some see these as Power Classes. That’s fine. Maybe the Sorcerer should be one of them?  Or maybe it should just be evenly balanced with the “average” power of the classes. Currently as it exists it is one of, if not the weakest class in the game both in flavor/uniqueness and overall functionality. It had the worst HD even though the class states it trains in combat more than a wizard. It has THE worst skills - even compared to a Fighter which has a host of other abilities, and as for skill points it is supposed to be a self-taught class, which if you look at every other self-taught they “begin” at 4+ points.I do not feel that the minor changes to HD and Skills are all that are needed to balance the class or I would have used Monte’s BoEM2 Sorcerer. I also don’t feel that class abilities on top of this unbalance the class. Too many abilities? Yes.  Too powerful abilities? Yes. But the right amount and power? No.Now – you do bring up one really good argument, and something I have been trying to get a grasp of from all these posts. So many people have so many varying ideas of what a sorcerer IS and SHOULD BE that we STILL do not have a defining point for the sorcerer.  As you state:Barbarian = Fast Movement & Rage & DRBard = Music & KnowledgeDruid = Animal Companion & Nature Abilities & Wild ShapeCleric = Domains & Turning UndeadFighter = Feat AcquisitionRanger = Fighting Style & Favored EnemyPaladin = Smite & Grace & Spell-Like & Horse & Turning, & etc.Wizard = Familiar & Item - Metamagic Feat AcquisitionMonk = Too many to countThe sorcerer has nothing unique to define it from a mechanics viewpoint.  Should this be a mere 3 or 4 spell-like abilities? Hell, even a Paladin gets better than that. Do I think the sorcerer should get as much as a Paladin? NO – sorcerer spells are better. But they DO need something.Arcane Sense is one such thing.The innate spells are a good idea, though I am not sure it is a payout worth the cost of a Class Ability slot, though it could be.Another idea that has been tossed about that I feel makes perfect sense would be similar to Divine Grace – basically a Sorcerers version of DR/SR.Strength of Magic (Su): The sorcerer’s magic runs strongly through their blood. The innate nature of a sorcerer’s magical focus protects them from magical attacks. The sorcerer gains a competence bonus to all saving throws against spells or spell-like effects equal to their Charisma modifier.As for the abilities, maybe the answer is to reduce the spell-likes to levels where they are more appropriate. And give better abilities at higher levels. Something more along this line. When is it good to get a spell like ability? 2 Spell Levels post when you get that spell level? Is getting a 0-level spell as a spell-like ability worth one of the 10 class level abilities for? Even a Paladin gets 2 other abilities besides Detect Evil @ will, and these wouldn’t even be at will.1….. Lineage, Spells (+ disadvantage of Aura)2….. Arcane Sense3….. 4….. Strength of Magic 5….. 6….. Innate Ability (1st) 7…..8….. Lineage Ability9…..10… Innate Ability (2nd) 11… 12… 13…14… Innate Ability (3rd)15… 16… 17… Lineage Ability18…19…20… Perfect SelfLineage Ability Examples: Celestial: The sorcerer’s affinity with their celestial lineage grows over time. At 8th level the sorcerer gains a permanent celestial aura as a supernatural ability that provides a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws. It also functions in the same manner as a protection from evil spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.  At 17th level the sorcerer’s celestial aura improves to provide a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saving throws, to themselves and all those within 10’ of the sorcerer.  It also functions in the same manner as a magic circle against evil spell (at the sorcerer’s class level). This aura can be dispelled, but can be activated again as a move-equivalent action on the sorcerer’s next turn.General: The sorcerer’s affinity with magic grows over time. At 8th level the sorcerer gains spell resistance equal to the sorcerer’s class level. At 17th level the sorcerer’s spell resistance increases to 10+ the sorcerer’s class level.This build would follow many of the other class builds, more lower-end abilities at low level then slowing the gain progression at higher levels balanced by the more powerful spell gain, but the class abilities at high level have to be worth reaching and not abandoning the class. This also sticks to the 10 class abilities I have been aiming at for broad-class balance.This also helps on the Heighten Spell issue. Example if a 20th level Evoker Sorcerer (20 Charisma) took Heighten, they could only use it on: 0-light; 1st-magic missile; 2nd-flaming sphere; 3rd-lightning bolt; 4th-shout; 5th-wall of force; 6th-Bigby’s forceful hand; 7th-Mordenkainen’s sword; 8th-Otiluke’s telekinetic sphere; 9th-Bigby’s crushing hand up to 5 times a day. This list in actuality becomes: 4th-shout; 5th-wall of force; 6th-Bigby’s forceful hand; 7th-Mordenkainen’s sword; 8th-Otiluke’s telekinetic sphereRemember – Metamagic cannot be used on Spell-Like abilities, that’s a different feat, and the sorcerer’s 1st-3rd spells are already changed to Spell-Like. Light is worthless to Heighten and you can’t heighten a 9th level spell.  I think it is pretty balanced.Thoughts?  (I will post the revision as soon as I can.)</blockquote>

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