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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1385144" data-attributes="member: 2167">True though not all sorcerers will dump skill points into Spellcraft. It is not a fitting skill for a lot of sorcerer builds especially now that they have useful skills to spend points on. In the past they spent all their points on Spellcraft because they really didn’t have much choice. However, though Detect Magic is useful, it is not a game breaker. It IS a 0-level spell first of all, and in most games it doesn’t serve too many purposes other than looking for magic items or magical traps. Even then its not unbalanced. Seeing the trap doesn’t help the rogue disarm it if they cant see it themselves. Detect magic doesn’t tell the sorcerer what the spell in place is just its school and strength. I don’t see it as an unbalanced ability especially when comparing it to per say Detect Evil which is given as an at-will ability and is a 1st-level spell.Ok, I will post this once again…The sorcerer class is NOT balanced in its abilities against the rest of the core classes. 10 Abilities brings it within a fair balance of the rest of the classes. I notice you chose to skip mentioning the other Pure caster – the druid. That by definition is swaying the balance. If you are going to compare class balance, you must compare the balance against all classes.  Everyone screams “but the sorcerer can cast more spells” to which I say… “and…?”  Statistically, the sorcerer doesn’t cast that many more spells actually, especially taking into account their incredibly limited spell selection. The party member’s contribution to a party is not primarily weighed by what they can do in one specific situation (which is the situation with a sorcerer’s spells as they are basically a one or two trick pony), it is based on what they can do in the long haul. Also - Clerics have a variety of small abilities you missed (see below) and Wizards also have Sscribe Scroll as well. We are also not granting game breaking abilities. We are trying to add useful but flavorful abilities that make the sorcerer a “unique” class with a true feel of its own – like Rangers, Paladins, Bards, Druids, Barbarians, etc. Right now the sorcerer is nothing more than a limited use Wizard with limited but innate Spell Mastery.SPELLSClass………Ave. Maximum Spells Per Day…|…Ave Spells Known…|…PreparationCleric………………….5.6/SL…………………….22 / SL……………….Prepared / No FailDruid………………….4.7/SL……………………..17 / SL……………….Prepared / No FailCore Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………….4 / SL…………………Unprepared / FailWizard………………...4/SL……………………….37 / SL……………….Prepared / FailSpecialist Wizard……..5/SL………………………..***………………….. Prepared / Fail*** As Wizard minus restricted School(s) otherwise still unlimited arcana. Overall, I think the Sorcerer is balanced with the other pure casters gaining a SMALL advantage in spell casting over the others but at the high cost of very few spells they know. Add to this the MASS imbalance with the other core class mechanic structures such as skills, skill points, HD, combat, etc. The sorcerer is on the low end of everything else.CLASS ABILITIES(Class Abilities {Special column} but counts Spells as a single Class Ability. Counts iterations of an ability as separate abilities where Iterations are such things as stacking Sneak Attacks. Does not count weapon and armor proficiency feats.)Barbarian = 24 abilities (9 without iterations)Bard = 15 abilities (12 without iterations)Fighter = 11 abilitiesMonk = 33 abilities (includes AC increase and speed; 25 without iterations)Paladin = 19 abilities (11 without iterations)Ranger = 18 abilitiesRogue = 24 abilities (10 without iterations)Cleric = 5 abilities (including: turn/rebuke, spontaneous, 2 domains, Specials (counted as only 1 ability): bonus languages, domain skill selections, divine unlimited arcana, favored weapon)Druid = 25 abilities (including spontaneous; 17 without iterations)Core Sorcerer = 2 abilitiesWizard = 7 abilities The averagenumber of class abilities (not counting the core Sorcerer which is the weakest in class abilities of ALL classes):Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations).Now if you REALLY want to get picky about this to weigh the Alt.Sorcerer in the same manner, the they have:Alt.Sorcerer = 10 abilities (7 w/o iterations) Even if you count spellcasting as 3 abilities (spells, spontaneous, high # cast per day) it STILL Only brings it to 12 abilities (9 w/o iterations).The Alt.Sorcerer bringing total abilities up to 10 brings them closer to the average number of abilities of casters and the other classes in the game. And this doesn’t even count throwing in the imbalance of Armor and Weapon feats, HD, Skills etc. that the other classes get.Why unnecessary? It follows the same logic as spell swapping. The spell-like ability is an evolution. It has evolved form being a spell to a spell-like ability. To retain some balance and some logic, it can no longer also be a spell known. It has evolved into something different, something better. However, how is it not backpedaling?This gets into a few metaphysics discussion questions. When you “forget” something, can you learn something new?  Why can a sorcerer forget any other spell and replace it, but not this one? When a sorcerer’s spell evolves into a natural spell-like ability that no longer needs to be cast, does that mean their Intelligence or their IQ (their ability to Know X # of spells) drops because they lose the knowledge of how to cast a spell?  This is an inherent problem with placing a finite quotient on what a sorcerer’s brain can “contain”. If you say that at X level of experience you can know how to cast 4 spells, but one of those spells is going to become a part of you and cease to be a spell you know how to cast, instead becoming something you can do with but a pure thought, but in so doing you are going to become more stupid and only know how to cast 3 spells.  ??This is supposed to reflect their mastery of magic, not a backslide in ability.Such as?  Examples?This MUST be a power worth staying in the class to 20th level to attain, rather than Multiclassing out to ANY PrC with a “+1 level of existing spellcaster class” because they get all the nifty cool powers and the sorcerer gets squat.  This is a HUGE failing in the core classes. There is NO incentive to stay in most of the core classes to 20th level. ANY PrC with “+1 level of existing spellcaster class” and a class ability no matter how lame – is still better than the core class.  So far the suggestions have indicated a form of metamorphosis, though I don’t want some physical metamorphosis like growing wings, etc.  The only such core ability to date is Perfect Self from the Monk, and I am not too keen on creating a house version. Granted I personally don’t feel Perfect Self is alone worth sticking with the class to 20th level for when there are so many “Power Options” I can get for so much cheaper (such as Templates, PrC’s, Standard Multiclassing, etc.).  Also, there is no “Magic” type. The closest thing possible would be to turn the sorcerer into either an Aberration, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid – or a worse choice… make it specific to the individual lineage.May I once again point people to page one and the listed mission statement, especially point B.Thread Mission Statement: To create a dynamic and appealing version of the sorcerer class that:A) Makes a sorcerer class mechanic that Matches the Flavor Text as designated in the PHB.B) Balances the class to All of the existing core classes of the PHB.C) Make the sorcerer a unique class with its own class abilities that separate it from being a Wizard that prepares spells differently.D) Could be used as a substitute for the core sorcerer of the PHB, thus following a similar design template such as fixed skill lists and class abilities.E) Present further Optional information to advance and customize the sorcerer.As I have discussed at numerous points (see above and various previous posts), I (and many others) feel that the Core Sorcerer is Vastly underpowered when compared to the other core classes.  Being able to machine gun cast a small handful of spells does not make the sorcerer powerful nor balanced (nor unique) unless you place it in the small percentage of games that are nothing put pure combat. There should be more to class design than combat balance.  If every sorcerer is meant to be nothing more than a combat spell battery, effectively the Fighter of spellcasters – then better to scrap the entire build design to date and go with the Battle Sorcerer Unearthed Arcana variant which is basically a cleric with arcane spells instead of divine.Keep the comments, questions, etc. coming.PS: I have completed the 1st Draft of the sample Lineages. Once we get the core a little more hammered out (or I get enough Post Requests) I will post the lineages.</blockquote>

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