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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 1385893" data-attributes="member: 5889">I think sonofapreacherman put my argument in an elegant light.For a spellcaster, every new spell they can cast is a new class ability if you will. So by increasing their spellcasting flexibility we are giving them a lot of new class abilities.But Khaalis is also right in that we need to make the sorc have a progression that is worthwhile, instead of every tom dick and harry prc with a +1 spellcasting level stealing the sorc's thunder. I also agree that giving more options to the way sorcs can cast spells enhances their flavor.I think the lineages do it all. They at the same time grant additional spells known, new abilities, and a progression. The key is to pick the right abilities. For instance, I like the general sorcs metamagic abilities. That's cool. I would like to see the other lineages have a similar effect on his spellcasting, for instance, allowing the celestial lineage to grant the sorcs spells a certain effect on evil creatures, or allow him to change his spells slightly with a good theme. That's flavor. Even the restrictions we can imply with each lineage can give the sorc flavor (what a character can do is just as defining as what he cannot do)So if we can pick good abilties for the lineages and give it a decent progession we've solved the majority of problems others were mentioning about the sorc with one package!!So to sum up, here is my suggestion for this sorc: Focus on the lineages to give what we need based on Khaalis' mission statement:A) Makes the sorc more like the flavor text in the phb: I think we've already covered this with a few more skills, and hd. Lineages can cover the rest.B) Balance the class to all other existing classes: Lineages add more spells known... that's a lot right there. They also give new abilities which can be made flavorful and as powerful as we need it. Combine that with the higher hd and more skills and I believe the job is done right there.C) Make the sorc class unique to other classes, esp the wizard: With lineages, we are definately making the sorc unique. We are giving him new flavor in his spells, and his spellcasting, even his class skill list. D) Create a substitute for the original sorc: We have modeled the lineage as domains enough to use current mechanics, but differentiated it enough to make it unique.E) Allow a way for sorcs to advance and for customization later: We can always add new lineages, prestige lineages, more advanced progessions for lineages.Okay, that's my statement about balance for now<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />As far as the detect magic at will argument, yes paladins get detect evil at will. But they also have a very strict code they must follow, nor are they getting a lot of new spells every level. And believe me from experience, players treat at will abilities at lot more freely than spells per day no matter how many times they could normally cast it. I've actually given detect magic at will for a limited time to a player, and the things they learn to do with it<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I feel perhaps this could be given to a particular sorc lineage, with some kind of other restriction.I also agree we want a good level 20 ability to keep the package. I think we can work to make it as a final progression to a sorc's lineage... we will have to see how those work out.So I really feel right now we should focus our efforts on the lineages, both the spells known and the abilities. Let's assume that is all the sorc is getting besides perhaps eschew materials. Let's work with those and see what we come up with. If the final package is lacking we can add other abilities. But in my mind its easier to have a good base and build up then to have to nit and pick and pull things down to balance it out.</blockquote>

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