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Message: <blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 1386037" data-attributes="member: 9789">I have to say that I agree with those who do not feel the sorc is underpowered.  Bland, yes - but not underpowered.  I think arguments involving total abilities per class are pointless; we all know the monk is NOT the strongest class, but they technically get the most abilities on a chart.  Being able to cast arcane spells up to level 9 is probably the most powerful and weighty ability in the game, and being able to cast 6 of them is amazingly powerful - even if it the same one or two several times - and far exceeding other class's "level 20" abilities.  I also think that people are not accurately taking into account the true flexability of the sorc - wizards can prepare for a wide range of specific situations, but they MUST prepare their spells; sorcs cast spontaniously.  When measuring a class's effectiveness in "the long haul," being able to react and adjust to any situation is a massive boon to this class.  All in all, I consider a wizard to be the most powerful long-term class in the game, and I see a sorc as close to a wizard in power.  It maybe isn't quite as powerful, but certainly not so underpowered as to require all of these additional bonuses.  In that respect, I disagree with bonuses to hit die and armor proficiencies, despite any descriptive text (which honestly, I see as merely justification for simple weapon prof), and I strongly disagree with adding more spells per day, innate abilities, spell-like abilities, or giving them spells earlier in their progression.That being said:  I love the Ecshew Materials idea, and think it is a definite keeper.  But I think if you are going to give it to sorcs, you should allow bards to have it for free as well - basically following the idea that all Cha-based spellcasters would have this feat.I also like the Lineage/Ancestry/etc. ideas that were discussed earlier that involve taking a penalty in order to get a bonus - similar to the specialization of schools that sorcs and wizards can already do.  (Like the "Dragon Lineage" that allowed a bonus to certain types of energy attacks and a penalty to opposite types.)  I think that helps add a lot of flavor and "mix up" the variety of sorcs, without making them overpowered - which solves the main problems of being too bland, and helps to create more unique types of sorcs.  In my opinion, if you really want to "redesign" sorcs, I'd say focusing in on this aspect is the best way to go about it, and to ignore all other unwarrented bonuses.EDIT:  Taking into account that last post, it would be easy enough to maintain that sorcs who multiclass out or gain PrCs do not continue to gain the benefit of their lineage - thus giving them a reason to stay sorcs, and still not overpowering them.  (I.e. spells learned when in a PrC do not gain the benefit/penalty associated with lineage, since the sorc is overcoming their background to develop as another class.)  Also, your argument that sorcs have no reason to stay sorcs would imply that a cleric PrC would make the cleric class worthless as well, since they receive no other "abilities" after the first level unrelated to their caster level.  Wizards, too, would have no reason to stay wizards, as long as their PrC provided some sort of ability that was as good as a feat.</blockquote>

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