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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1394891" data-attributes="member: 2167">The only problem here is that this isn’t a Generalist vs. Specialist debate.  The Generalist (which may be a horrible name at this point) is still a “generalist” in every extent except the banned school – which I agree is not the best answer – but I am lacking for a better option right now, short of simply giving the abilities that they have right now with No restrictions – which just might work considering how weak the “General” sorcerer’s abilities are before 20th level.There IS one point we agree on. There are certain things that can’t be compromised. Those things are:1)    First and foremost you are right - A generalist needs to feel like a generalist. Thus none of the abilities are specialist in nature.2)    Secondly but just as importantly the generalist sorcerer HAS to get abilities. The ones they get now are about as generic and Un-flavorful as you can get, but they have to get them or the entire build goes out the window. Rule 1 = Consistency in balance.3)    Thirdly, a Sorcerer in this build needs to have some form of theme no matter how limited it may be. Thus the generalist chooses a Theme Spell List.  Keep in mind the ones listed (Antimagic, Battle, etc.) are only Examples. You could technically still choose “any spell you want” at each spell level and call it Bob’s Theme if you really wanted to and the DM let you. BUT they have to be chosen at creation and dont change.This also holds true for the other lineages, but with some logic thrown in. If you are of a Fireborn lineage, it makes no logical nor flavor sense for you to manifest cold/water spells. Does that make them a specialist? Hell No! They may get their lineage fire spells, but guess what? Of the other 35+ spells they get to choose over their career… not a Single One of them needs to be a fire spell.On another note, I disagree that Specialists are more powerful than Generalists. They are balanced. A generalist can do more than a specialist but the specialist does what little they do better but suffers lack of versatility and usually suffers a small weakness as well.  It’s a trade-off of balance.  Which is more powerful a 2nd level Rogue with say 4 skills at 4 ranks or one with 8 skills at 2 ranks? Is a fighter with a bunch of generic feats like Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack more powerful than say a Fighter specialized with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon focus?  It depends on the situation.  Same thing with a specialist (or in this case a Lineage Sorcerer) versus a generalist spellcaster.  Also keep in mind that the lineages are NOT specialists. Some do have an inability to use certain magic but that doesn’t make them a specialist, it adds flavor and logic, and they gain equal benefits for the cost. I don’t understand what you mean here. If I am reading this correctly it seems that you are saying don’t give a lineage any abilities, just penalties?? Why would anyone ever bother then?  Why would I take a lineage that grants me no abilities but a few specific known spells that I may or may not like, but that gives me penalties that continue to grow in severity?  I guess I need some clarification on this one?? There were a few dissenting votes on it and the logic made some sense. The first and foremost is PHB balance. We can see a pattern of Ratio between Number of Class Skills and Skill Points. Core Sorcerer = 6 skills (2 SP)Fighter = 7 skills (2 SP)Barbarian = 9 skills (4 SP)Cleric = 10 skills (2 SP)Paladin = 10 skills (2 SP)Druid = 12 skills (4 SP)Wizard = 15 skills (2 SP = Offset of INT Primary more like 4 SP)Monk = 18 skills (4 SP)Ranger = 19 skills (6 SP)Rogue = 29 skills (8 SP)Bard = 35 skills (6 SP) The are a few exceptions that don’t fit the pattern: * The Wizard, because it would break the balance due to INT already being its primary stat and thus automatically granting an additional minimum of Skill points that not other class has. Even assuming a starting Wizards with only a 14 INT, they by default gain 4 SP per level.* Barbarians get higher points than the others in their class skill range, but ALL of the Nature folk get more.* And of course Rogues because they are supposed to be a skill primary class.So on the balance note the Alt.Sorcerer has 9 Class Skills (only 7 of which are “heavy utilization” as profession and craft or more for flavor than everyday use).  All other classes (except Barbarian) that have 10 and under class skills, gain only 2+INT. Now looking at it from a min/max balance there is also one other problem that Halma brought to light that I had missed before.  With 4+INT even assuming a 10 INT Human, the sorcerer has 20 Skill Points at 1st level with witch they can max out 5 of the 7 of the core class skills. An INT of 12 maxes out a 6th skill and an INT 14 maxes out the 7th core skill.  Now even with the INT 10 the human can Keep those 5 skills Maxed at all times as they gain 5 points per level. Same for the higher INT. At a 12 they can keep 6 maxed and at a 14 they keep 7 maxed. A 16+ INT? All gravy and basically worthless for anything more than RP value.I don't think that’s well balanced. If there were more skills to make choices necessary, then yes I would say go with 4+INT.  I am toying with Use Magic Device after following the other sorcerer threads that have popped up in abundance since we started this.  I am also toying with a few others as the class is supposed to be self taught, but I want to keep the skill list clean and simple.Now granted, Monte’s Sorcerer only had 9 skills as well (including Profession and Craft) with 4+INT, though that was 3.0. In 3.5 He would be reduced to 7 as alchemy was absorbed into craft and scry doesn’t exist anymore.So basically, the decision is still out on this. Thanks for the comments and the ideas. Its got my mind thinking on a few things.</blockquote>

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