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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1398020" data-attributes="member: 2167">While we all thank you for your input and comments, most of what you say here has been hashed out and discussed ad nauseum in the previous 300+ posts so I am not going to attempt to rehash it here. If you would really like to understand the logic to this build, and as to why it is seen as balanced by the many fans of the build, please go check the previous threads.  However, in saying that, please take it with a grain of salt especially if you are a Core Purist… in which case I would save you the time and effort because you will never be swayed to believe that the Sorcerer is THE weakest class in the game mechanics-wise and design-wise, or that bringing in ideas from Unearthed Arcana is a good idea.There is one Key issue with keeping the High End Spontaneous Metamagic for the lineage spells only as pointed out by Coredump.  I mentioned this a ways back, but had let it slide and forgot to reinforce it when I posted the new idea. The problem is that the 1st level version, is intended to be a more limited version, but it also becomes even more limited as the sorcerer progresses in level.  Yes you get the one +0 or +1 level Metamagic feat that you can use CHA Mod. times per day “on the fly” but it can only be applied to Lineage Spells. This is, by its nature, the limit that becomes more restrictive over time. Why? Because you lose 3 spells from the ability by 14th level. So instead of having 10 lineage spells to use this on (9 if it is a +1 level feat), it drops to 7 (or only 6 if it is a +1 level feat).What I think we can do is compromise and meet in the middle. Let the abilities gained at 9th, 17th, and 20th actually be an increased version as they should be since no other class gets the equivalent of a 1st level ability at these high of levels. To meet in the middle, we can remove the “Power Feats” (Maximize, etc.) from the options, but let the feat work on any spell known. (See Below)Now as to allowing the 1st level feat to carry over to the Spell-Like Abilities. While it might sound like a good idea, I don’t feel that it is balanced.  A Spell-Like Ability already gains the advantage of requiring no components (v, s or m/f). That is basically an improved Eschew Material, and the Silent Spell and Still Spell feats all rolled into one. To add spontaneous metamagic on top of it would either be redundant since most sorcerers will take Silent or Still (and already have Eschew) or would be too much of an advantage to add Extend, Enlarge, Heighten etc on top of the other 3 benefits.However, what we have done is make an addendum statement to the Innate Ability text to indicate that the sorcerer may, once they receive this ability, choose to take any of the Spell-Like Ability Metamagic feats such as Empower and Quicken Spell-Like Ability from the Monster Manual.Good Spot Check!I had originally planned it this way as a balance factor to the power increase. Though the more I look at it the more I am thinking of reducing the 9th level to the same time frame of 1 hour per 2 levels. The idea is that it needs to strike a balance between combat effectiveness and the role-play aspect of Evil Eye. In most cases an Evil Eye ability is used to curse a target, to then let the target get themselves into situations that will punish them (thus the vast range of reduction). However, it can be used  as a directed combat tool (which is what the Hexblade is based upon).  The RP aspect would push the 1 day idea, while as a combat tool anything more than 1 minutes is basically worthless since the idea is your opponent is dead by that time.I can concede to this argument and the more I think on it I agree that since it is being added as a small piece of a greater ability that it should be effective but not a Primary Effect ability. Thus a reduction to SR 25 is in order.This isn’t entirely true. A Cleric can take a MetaChanneling feat such as Divine Power just as the sorcerer is getting a Metamagic feat which makes their channeling much more effective and useable. Also as noted below, using the 3+CHA mod. mechanic is a good balance point for granting abilities that drive off of Charisma, which the sorcerer needs. On metamagic and a few other abilities it is based just on Cha Mod while others use 3+Cha if they are seen as weaker powers.The higher level version of the ability will be restricted to 3/day as the original rule.I am not seeking mega-power increase, but am seeking powers that are both a Flavor Match to the lineage as well as reasonably balanced to the level at which they are gained. A class should not be first gaining say Evil Eye at a -2 penalty at 17th level – it would be worthless. The evil eye/curse is a Key ability to the Gypsy flavor. As for taking from other classes, I have done that as much as possible to stick to abilities that have already been written versus making things up. What I may do here is reduce the curse to -2/-4 rather than -3/-6 which will leave the Hexblade as the better in this arena – that or look at making Evil Eye a “Bestow Curse” Spell-Like Ability.Now the issue here is that even as is...Evil Eye (Sp): Use: A number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.Cast Time: 1 standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Range: The target must be visible to the sorcerer and within 60’. Duration: 1 hour per 2 sorcerer levels.Effect: Take a –2 penalty on attacks, saves, ability checks, skill checks and weapon damage rolls.  Multiple evil-eye effects do not stack.  At 17th level the penalty applied to the target increase to –4.Saves:A successful Will save (DC 10 + ½ their sorcerer level + sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) negates the effect.Compared to:Bestow Curse (Sp):Use: A number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.Cast Time: 1 standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Range: Would have to change to allow 60' visual contact.Duration: Permanent.Effect: Choose 1:* –6 penalty to an Ability Score* –4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.* Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.* You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above.* The curse bestowed by this spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell.Saves:A successful Will save (DC 14 + sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) negates the effect.Which is worse? Which is better? The more I look at it, the more I like the Bestow Curse option better. At 17th level simply make it harder to resist.As for fixed number of times per day, I am not entirely sure I agree. In most classes this works because they have primary stats that grant a variety of bonuses. Charisma grants nothing more than an effect on spellcasting. The class should have other abilities that gain a benefit from their Charisma.As for “Aspect of Power” – do you mean Arcana Unearthed not UA? If so this will have to wait till I get access to the book again (I don’t have it with me) to check what you mean.So the updated GENERALIST ability would look like this.GENERALISTLineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with magic grows over time. .....At 9th level the sorcerer gains the Spontaneous Metamagic ability. Spontaneous Metamagic (Ex): Choose one metamagic feat of choice from either: Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell (only feats with up to a 1 spell level adjustment may be chosen for this ability). This feat is a virtual feat that may be used “on-the fly” to effect any spell the sorcerer knows, three times per day. This feat is used without prior preparation, increased spell level or extended casting time. The maximum level of spell to which a caster can apply a metamagic feat is equal to the maximum spell level they are capable of casting, minus the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. If the result of this calculation is less than 0, then that metamagic feat cannot be used on any of the sorcerer's spells. A caster can apply more than one metamagic feat to a spell, or even the same metamagic effect more than once (if allowed by the feat's description). However, to determine the maximum level of spell that can be so affected, add together the spell level adjustments given for the various feats. The Heighten Spells feat may be used to increase a spell's effective level (for purpose of save DC's and so on) up to the maximum spell level you are capable of casting. The spell is treated as a spell of that level for purposes of save DC and similar effects, but does not require a higher level spell slot......At 17th level the sorcerer gains the Spontaneous Metamagic ability again. A chosen virtual feat may be chosen again, gaining an additional three uses per day of the virtual feat......At 20th level, a general sorcerer becomes a magical creature gaining the outsider type as well as the augmented and native subtypes. The sorcerer undergoes a minor physical transformation usually to the hair, skin or eyes, such as a coloration not normal to their species or perhaps a definitive streak of off-color hair or even a mystical tattoo-like symbol. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the general sorcerer gains the following benefits.• Darkvision out to 60’.• Gain Spell Resistance (Su): Grants spell resistance 25.• Gain Damage Reduction (Su): Grants damage reduction 10/magic, which allows them to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a non-magical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn’t have similar damage reduction. • Gain the Spontaneous Metamagic ability again. A chosen virtual feat may be chosen again, gaining an additional three uses per day of the virtual feat......Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Also unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.PS: Ideas for a different term for the "Generalist" lineage would be appreciated.Some Ideas = Mixed Lineage, Undetailed Lineage, Unknown Lineage, Universal Lineage, Generic Lineage, Hybrid Lineage, Crossed Lineage, Mongrel Lineage, Diverse Lineage....The updated GYPSY ability would look like this.Lineage Abilities: The sorcerer’s affinity with gypsy magic grows over time. .....At 9th level the gypsy sorcerer learns the ancient gypsy way of the evil eye, which is a Charisma based spell-like ability gifted to true gypsies. A number of times per day equal to the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier, the gypsy sorcerer may curse a target as a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The target must be visible to the sorcerer and within 60’. In all other respects the ability functions as the bestow curse spell. A Will save (DC 14 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) negates the effect......At 17th level the gypsy sorcerer’s ability to use their evil eye ability grows in strength making it harder to resist. The Will save to negate increases to DC 18 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier......At 20th level, a gypsy sorcerer becomes a magical creature gaining the outsider type as well as the augmented and native subtypes.  The sorcerer undergoes a minor physical transformation usually to the hair, skin or eyes, such as a coloration not normal to their species or perhaps a definitive streak of off-color hair or even a mystical tattoo-like symbol or some other symbol of prestige in the gypsy’s culture. They are forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the sorcerer’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the gypsy sorcerer gains the following benefits. • Darkvision out to 60’. • Gain True Curse (Sp): Once per day the gypsy sorcerer may bestow a true curse on an individual as a standard action. Victims so afflicted must succeed a Will save (DC 19 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) to negate the effect. A failed saving throw results in the curse holding and lasts until the recipient receives a wish, or miracle. The effects the gypsy may bestow with this curse are: bestow curse, confusion, contagion, feeblemind, insanity, emotion, poison, or baleful polymorph. • Gain Gypsy Sight (Sp): The gypsy sorcerer gains the ability to use legend lore as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to their Charisma modifier. As this is a true spell-like ability, no foci or material components are required to use this ability. • Gain Timeless Body (Ex): The gypsy sorcerer no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties they may have already incurred, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the gypsy sorcerer still dies of old age when their time is up......Unlike other outsiders, the sorcerer can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Also unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.</blockquote>

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