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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1399791" data-attributes="member: 2167">Firstly – thank you all for the continued input and aid in this project, and for not letting the thread get side-tracked.Personal Note: I feel that I need to pipe in with an editorial reminder at this point. This editorial is meant be rhetoric and not meant for a side-track conversation. This is just to help people remember why I wrote the mission statement found at the top of the page.I will say that I DO agree with the assessment that this sorcerer is a boost in power over the original class. I never said that it wasn’t. However, I think it is an acceptable boost in power, and something that the class desperately needs to bring it in line with the other classes such as Druid, Monk, Cleric, Rogue, etc. I find that most people who like the sorcerer as-is are those that exist within the Low-Power/Low-Magic D&D Culture.  That’s Great… IF that’s your cup of tea.  I personally do not like that style of game and I am truly sick-and-tired of being told that if I don’t like that style of game that I don’t know how to play D&D.  I prefer a higher power, higher magic game. D&D to me should be about epic heroes doing epic things and about magic. To me - what is fantasy without magic?   If I want to be just like every other schlub in the world – I’d play Me, or if I wanted to play in a low/no-magic game I would play something that doesn’t involve magic or has incredible little, like Swashbuckling Adventures or Shadowrun or RoleMaster.With that said, in a Low-Power/Low-Magic Game, where magic items are incredibly rare, Wizards can’t find a spell scroll or spell book to save their lives, etc… Then yes the sorcerer’s 1 extra spell per day over a specialist wizard comes in handy. However I STILL don’t see it as being mega powerful. I also do not see where a Sorcerer’s Spontaneous Casting is the most powerful ability in the game when they can only choose between 4 spells in a given level – especially if those 4 spells are all geared toward one specific event (99% of the time – combat).  A well played wizard will never be caught without a necessary spell of choice, whether that be by being prepared ahead of time for the encounter or through their given 1st level Class Ability of Scribe Scroll.  In a low magic game where no one is prepared for magic, then a sorcerer has a small advantage when in its limited environment, but a Wizard rules in all environments. The wizard who can blast enemies on the field of battle as well as open the enemies front door and find out where the princess is being held and make traveling great distances easy and buff the fighter and so many other things that the sorcerer 99% of the time cant do is, in my book, the more powerful of the two. In my opinion the Sorcerer lags behind almost every other class in both power and versatility.  To this day I would still choose a Rogue or Rogue/Non-Caster Multiclass any day, hands down over the core Sorcerer. Of all the spellcasting classes Druid and Cleric are on the top of the power pile if nothing else than for sheer power of versatility – at least until you reach the high teen levels, when a wizard can finally begin to shine. Now, if you place the core sorcerer into a Medium to High power/magic game such as the Core Realms – the sorcerer is most definitely weak when compared to the other classes. More often than not, unless you exist in a hack-and-slash campaign, the Sorcerer gets left standing around with little to add to the group other than in an RP aspect.On a personal opinion of editorial evaluation of class construction… Any class that is 100% of the time better to drop and choose a PrC – is not well designed nor is it balanced. In the core rules there is not one mechanics reason that a Sorcerer should not PrC out immediately to any class they can that has the “+1 level of caster” mechanic. That is a poorly written class, especially since the core material and the designers say that any Multiclassing choice should be difficult to make.Personal Note Ended:Now… On to the mass replies.I hope so. In most cases I agree, but not all. Supernatural abilities and even some Extraordinary abilities are much more fitting for some of the lineages. Some spell-like abilities are too key-holed or too stereotypical to apply when something a bit more generic can be applied. We shall see as we get farther along.On the metamagic use, I think the 3+Cha for the 1st level ability is fine. It is limited enough that even if they can do it 7 times a day (that’s a 24 CHA) it wont break anything.  For the higher level abilities the power is less restricted so tightening the control on uses per day is an equal balance.As for the Heighten Spell, this is how the “Daily Uses” ability is defined in Unearthed Arcana. The cap is built into the function of the feat in that you can only heighten the spell to the maximum spell level you can cast. All heighten spell does is effect the Save DC and for overcoming specific spell level resistance like Globes of Invulnerability.  I think that burning a metamagic feat is a fair deal to gain this bonus which is why it was written as it is in the original ability.  If others disagree strongly enough, we can always remove the Heighten Spell from the 1st level list of options.Its not a matter of “need”. It is a matter of giving them an ability worthy of staying in the class to 20th level, and 9th level spells don’t cut it since they get those at 18th level. I have yet to see an equivalent suggestion made for a power to be granted at 20th level that would inspire anyone to stay in the class to 20th to bother receiving it.  Of the core abilities, the Monk’s Perfect Self is the most fitting for a sorcerer, though not all get “outsider” – as some get other “Types and Subtypes” appropriate to their lineage.  It is a factor of being a magical transformation – the sorcerer becoming one with the magic within them. For the “outsider” the addition of immunity to “humanoid” spells, darkvision, and DR, is a very nice 20th level ability, and it also adds a nice RP related special restriction that they can be affected by “outsider” spells.This actually kind of baffles me.  Why do you not see it as appropriate?  90% of the beings that have SR also have Spell-Like Abilities and or outright spells… Including the Monk.  The premise is that the stronger the sorcerer’s magic grows, the less effected he is by low end magic. Think of it this way.  The sorcerer’s magic use is like the immune system. The more you are exposed to a toxin, the more resistance you build up to that substance – sometimes even building an outright immunity.  Same thing with the Sorcerer’s magic. The more magic they channel, the more magic they build up within themselves, the more resistant they become to magic from without. Or think of it this way – the sorcerers internal powerhouse of magical energy is so strong that it nullifies lesser magics.  This is what SR is. Otherwise the 90 something % of the creatures in existence of the game don’t make sense.Ok. The +2 level metamagic is not a bad idea. This would be another growth in the metamagic at this stage and makes sense but isn’t silly like Maximize. As for Quicken, I just don’t know. I am not a fan of the Quicken for the Sorcerer. Yes it makes much logical sense etc, but its already enough that they don’t have to spend a full-round action to use these metamagic feats, but to also give Quicken? Hmm… quicken is a Very powerful effect. I Might allow giving Quicken Spell-Like as a class ability.  Quicken spell was prevented on Sorcerers for a reason, mostly because they are already “technically” casting quickened spells.As for your power suggestion, using quicken on anything with a casting time over one round is too much, and it definitely needs to keep the 5th level spell limit.Keep in mind that Quicken is reducing a 6 second cast time to 1 second. Your proposal would allow a 10 minute (600 seconds) cast time reduction to 6 seconds – that’s a HUGE benefit! As this is a 9th level ability and not a 1st level ability I think I can agree on the 3/day uses since it is a beefy ability unlike Augury.  However to balance the growth from 9th to 17th, I will do this. .....At 9th level the gypsy sorcerer learns the ancient gypsy way of the evil eye, which is a Charisma based spell-like ability gifted to true gypsies. Three times per day, the gypsy sorcerer may curse a target as a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. The target must be visible to the sorcerer and within 60’. In all other respects the ability functions as the bestow curse spell. A Will save (DC 14 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier) negates the effect......At 17th level the gypsy sorcerer’s ability to use their evil eye ability grows in frequency to five times per day. It also grows in strength making it harder to resist. The Will save to negate increases to DC 18 + the sorcerer’s Charisma modifier.See the above discussion on the transmutation. As for Poison, yes the duration is ”Instant (see text)” ...Text: “The poison deals 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage immediately and another 1d10 points of temporary Constitution damage 1 minute later.”By assigning it as a True Curse, it functions as the spell normally but has a harder resist DC and cannot be stopped from taking its secondary effected by spells such as Neutralize Poison etc.If you like, feel free to start another thread. You will not have been the 1st nor the last. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I would be more than happy to strip this down for a low-magic campaign setting in another thread. However you will basically wind up with being back to Monte’s Sorcerer.Sorry Tuzenbach. I promise to check this out and reply ASAP. I have been very under the weather from chemotherapy treatments so my time on the boards has been limited so I haven’t been paying as much attention to other threads I would normally like.</blockquote>

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