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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1400633" data-attributes="member: 2167">Quickly before bed.I can kinda see your point.  I will try to go post this on the D&D rules board and see what kind of responses we get.You only took a part of the statement.Per the SRD from “Magic Overview”…“SPELL RESISTANCESpell resistance is a special defensive ability. If your spell is being resisted by a creature with spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance for the spell to affect that creature. The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks. Include any adjustments to your caster level to this caster level check.The Spell Resistance entry and the descriptive text of a spell description tell you whether spell resistance protects creatures from the spell. In many cases, spell resistance applies only when a resistant creature is targeted by the spell, not when a resistant creature encounters a spell that is already in place.The terms “object” and “harmless” mean the same thing for spell resistance as they do for saving throws. A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless. In such a case, you do not need to make the caster level check described above.”Only SOME spells are affected by this restriction. For example, Cure spells are not. Only Undead may apply spell resistance.  As for the rest it makes perfect sense.  It acts like Magical AC against spells. Having to lower it makes sense. Just like targets of other spells have to be “Willing” or in some cases, a caster has to actually make a Touch Attack to cast beneficial touch spells if that other person is not motionless.But that does still require the use of a magic item, something much more easily “denied” access to by a DM that doesn’t like it, Especially since it’s a Splat book and not a core item.Lets see, 1st-5th level spells with over 1 round Casting time. Also assume that someone lets the sorcerer gain spells outside the Wizard schools, such as the Nature Sorcerer or PrC’s. Also note this is only Core spells and doesn’t count the Hundreds of new spells floating out there that could be easily abused with this.  (If I missed any – sorry.)Wiz: Arcane Eye (10 min), Break Enchantment (1 min), Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (10 min), Contact Other Plane (10 min), Dream (1 min), Fabricate (1 minute per 10 cubic foot), Fire Trap (10 min), Hallucinatory Terrain (10 min), Identify (1 hour), Illusory Script (1 min+), Leomund’s Secret Chest (10 min), Leomund’s Secure Shelter (10 min), Major Creation (10 min), Minor Creation (1 min), Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum (10 min), Nightmare (10 min), Permanency (2 rounds), Phantom Steed (10 min), Lesser Planar Binding (10 min), Prying Eyes (1 min), Scrying (1 hr), Secret Page (10 min), Sending (10 min), Sepia Snake Sigil (10 min), Symbol of Pain (10 min), Symbol of Sleep (10 min)(Most all of these could have great impact on combat if used quickened or make other things MUCH simpler such as escapes from combat.)Non: Atonement (1 hour), Augury (1 min), Awaken (24 hrs), Bless Water (1 min), Commune (10 min), Commune-Nature (10 min), Create Food & Water (10 min), Curse Water (1 min), Divination (10 min), Glyph of Warding (10 min), Hallow & Unhallow (24 hrs), Imbue with Spell Ability (10 min), Mark of Justice (10 min), Lesser Planar ally (10 min), Raise Dead (1 min), Reincarnate (10 min), Lesser Restoration & Restoration (3 rounds), Snare (3 rounds), Speak with Dead (10 min)On the Poison – or maybe just remove poison as it is a very specific spell and the spell itself crosses the line between spell and mundane since it’s a spell but causes poison damage…As for 17th, I have been trying to keep 17th a growth of 9th as a bridge to 20th.  As for a different curse I don’t know of any others. The only thing I could think would be to move True Curse to 17th and call it Improved Evil Eye (or somesuch) but only give spells of up to say 6th level and at 20th let them bestow curses such as Lycanthrope and spells over 6th level?Thoughts?Those things are a part of the outsider. Also – everything else but these 2 become something…As for the epitome of gypsy, it isn’t per say it’s the epitome of being a gypsy Sorcerer.  Other classes can be gypsys, but only a rare few a True Gypsy Sorcerers.Please take this rant with a grain of salt... I'm tired and cranky and of course as always it is my opinion - but it is also the opinion of a lot of other people and is the reason this entire project began in the first place.With that said...On this I have argued ad nauseum. I have made my points more times than I can count. The sorcerer is THE weakest class in the game. I have playtested them, watched them playtested, and watched people complain about them since the day the books hit the shelves. They work great as-is in a very low power/low magic game. However, D&D by its core design is NOT meant to be Low-Power,Low-Magic. Which is why the core system breaks when you do things like take away Magic Items at the level they are “designed” to be given out.  I would never play a core sorcerer again if I had the choice of ANY other class. And if I were forced to play one I would PrC or Multiclass out as soon as I could. As for the spells known, it brings them on par with what a Wizard gets for free, If a DM is running a game where a Wizard cannot expand their spellbook beyond the freebies gained in the class description, they are breaking the system as designed and hacked the wizard. Is this making the Sorcerer more powerful than the wizard? No. Its making the Wizard weaker than it is designed to be.  Every complaint I have ever seen about the sorcerer Always includes the complaint that it needs at least a Small boost in known spells to give it just a smidge more versatility than the same core spells all sorcerers have to take to be of any use to a party.  Your #2 argument supports that all Sorcerers HAVE to mold to a certain specific set of spells to be of use. They cant take specific use spells that would specialize them in anything, or spells that are of general purpose nor can they double up such as having levitate and fly – as it’s a redundant waste of precious spell slots.Keep in mind that the core system is designed around a 4 person party and it is designed to fill 4 sets of Shoes: the iconic party – Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, and Rogue.  The wizard is part of that core for a reason. It is more powerful and more versatile in the long run and in the big picture. All of the other classes are designed to be options for substitution into this equation and Most do a fair job of equaling the power and capability of the original with a twist.Rogue = BardFighter = Barbarian, Paladin, Monk, RangerCleric = DruidAll except the Sorcerer who pales in comparison and can never fill the shoes of a wizard.  The core wizard Rules due to its ability to walk around with a storehouse of spells for all occasions, and keeping those slots for the combat spells. Its sheer versatility as the magic “solution” to “encounters” of ALL types can never be matched by the sorcerer.As for the core class, I am pretty happy with where it currently resides in power versus the other classes in the game and feel it still pales considered to some (with the exception of 20th level). For further reasons why, go back through the previous posts. I have made the logic pretty clear. Now, that’s all I can ramble on about right now – I am beat and desperately need some sleep before getting up for work in 6 hours.</blockquote>

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