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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1410482" data-attributes="member: 2167">Mass ReplyAs has been mentioned, this is a pretty weak ability. I would almost lean toward it being a permanent ability if we go with this, or the very minimum of 3+Cha/day.This is one point I have to make a personal statement from a game design point of view. Simplicity is one thing, worrying about people’s laziness is another.  The system is currently basic and simple in design, not very different from a domain, except that it grants domain “powers” at 1st, 8th, & 14th instead of just 1st. In your example of the Good Domain, it grants a bonus to all Good Spells.  Is there anywhere in the PHB that prepares a predefined list of just good spells? No. It is left to the player to do their homework. We don’t have to hand-hold every player as if they are stupid, uneducated or lazy. Sure there are some that may fit those molds, but we shouldn’t penalize the rest of the community, nor should we cater to those that fit these other molds.  Especially since all characters have to sit and weigh options. 3E is based on the concept of choices. A fighter has to sit and do a fair amount of homework on feats to be well designed. A Wizard has to do quite a bit of homework to figure out not only the spells they have in their spellbook, but how to arrange those into daily preparation lists. If a player playing a sorcerer cannot look at a spell list other than the Sorcerer/Wizard list because it is too much work – they shouldn’t be playing a spellcaster in the first place. And if we begin to remove game design aspects because we feel people are too lazy to do the basic research involved in their class/classes – then we shouldn’t be doing game designing. As for the spell specifics in this case. Yes the Celestial is being granted to good and light spells, but they are also being banned from evil and darkness spells - balance. A part of the sorcerer flavor is the access to exotic spells. It also fits the entire “lineage” aspect if that lineage taint that grants them their magic has some influence on the magic. The difference between the lineage list and allowing specific access is simple. The lineage spells “Dictate” powers that manifest in sorcerers of that particular lineage – they are an “embodiment” of how celestial blood manifests within sorcerers.  However – does this mean that it is the ONLY celestial oriented powers a sorcerer may manifest? No. The sorcerer should have the option to have a strong or weak celestial effect on their spells.  Some will ignore it and choose all of the standard sorcerer spell choices. Others will instead go for flavor and expand on the power inherent within their lineage. This “mechanic” also continues to provide a sense of logic and balance into the core concept of Muliclassing and magic item use.  As to the specific list:Good/Light Spells Sorcerer:Dancing Lights (Light) Sor0Flare (Light) Sor0Light (Light) Sor0Protection from Evil (Good) Sor1Daylight (Light) Sor3Magic Circle against Evil (Good) Sor3Sunburst (Light) Sor8Good/Light Spells Non-Sorcerer:Bless Water (Good) Clr1Faerie Fire (Light) Drd1Consecrate (Good) Clr2Holy Smite (Good) Good4Holy Sword (Good) Pal4Dispel Evil (Good) Clr5Hallow (Good) Clr5Holy Word (Good) Clr7Sunbeam (Light) Drd7Holy Aura (Good) Clr8So they gain 10 spells to their available spell list from outside the Sorcerer list, and most are not that powerful to begin with.Evil/Darkness Spells Sorcerer:Protection from Good (Evil) Sor1Darkness (Darkness) Sor2Magic Circle against Good (Evil) Sor3Animate Dead (Evil) Sor4Contagion (Evil) Sor4Symbol of Pain (Evil) Sor5Create Undead (Evil) Sor6Eyebite (Evil) Sor6Create Greater Undead (Evil) Sor8Evil/Darkness Spells Non-Sorcerer:Curse Water (Evil) Clr1Deathwatch (Evil) Clr1Death Knell (Evil) Clr2Desecrate (Evil) Clr2Deeper Darkness (Darkness) Clr3Unholy Blight (Evil) Evil4Dispel Good (Evil) Clr5Unhallow (Evil) Clr5Blasphemy (Evil) Clr7Unholy Aura (Evil) Clr8In exchange for the 10 new spells they loose access to 9 sorcerer spells. As well as any ability to use another 10 spells even if multiclassed or as magical items.I am also thinking of adding… Shadow, Death & Fear as a restricted Types:SorcererCause Fear (Fear) Sor1Scare (Fear) Sor2Fear (Fear) Sor4Phantasmal Killer (Fear) Sor4Shadow Conjuration (Shadow) Sor4Shadow Evocation (Shadow) Sor5Circle of Death (Death) Sor6Shadow Walk (Shadow) Sor6Symbol of Fear (Fear) Sor6Finger of Death (Death) Sor7Project Image (Shadow) Sor7Shadow Conjuration, Greater (Shadow) Sor7Simulacrum (Shadow) Sor7Shadow Evocation, Greater (Shadow) Sor8Symbol of Death (Death) Sor8Power Word Kill (Death) Sor9Shades (Shadow) Sor9Wail of the Banshee (Death) Sor9Weird (Fear) Sor9Non-SorcererBane (Fear) Clr1Destruction (Death) Clr7Doom (Fear) Clr1Slay Living (Death) Clr5That bans another 19 sorcerer spells and 4 mutliclass/magic item spells, bring the total to:* 10 Sorcerer Spells Acquired from outside the Sorcerer list* 28 Sorcerer Spells Lost* 14 Spells inaccessible via multiclassing or magic items useI would say this does a fine job of limiting the sorcerer’s spell list in a reasonable and logical manner related to their lineage. This is no more work than any other spellcaster choosing spells especially if they are restricted by PrC selections. This took me but a few minutes to scan the spells (took me 10 times as long to type it up).Welcome!The reason for this has been discussed in the previous threads, however to summarize…It was felt that this version of the sorcerer needed to be something that could be substituted into the PHB as a direct replacement for the core sorcerer. To do that, we are unfortunately bound by the existing magic system. Do I agree with it? No, not personally, but it is a design mechanic that we must stick with if the alt.core build is to be acceptable as a replacement to the core class.Now note that this thread will eventually carry on to an Advanced Alt.Sorcerer (similar in nature to the advanced rules sets used in the Unearthed Arcanan and likely in the coming “Advanced” Handbook by Green Ronin.  My original version of an alt.sorcerer (and likely my ultimate version in-house) utilizes the Spell Slot system but as Spell-Like Abilities. Thus, no components – which basically makes them similar to psionics, being activated by sheer will (or force of personality as it may be).  I may also offer a spell-point variant as an advanced option as well, but it will likely be modified from the UA/Psionics system.  Another system I am toying with is a rules derivative that allows the sorcerer to have spells that they know like the back of their hand (standard spells known) and can use as Spell-Like Abilities, but possibly as a Metamagic style ability - they also have the ability to craft a spell-effect on-the-fly (using core spells) that requires a combined spellcraft/concentration role and that has other associated costs similar to metamagic, say for example costs a slot one level higher than it would normally cost.As for the spell system, again we are bound by what exists in the core books if we are to stick to the Mission of this thread. We want a class that makes sense to the flavor of the sorcerer, that works within the bounds of the core system, and that is balanced to the other classes in the core rules. To do that we are bound by the current spell lists.For those that are seeking a TRUE Freeform spellcaster, where you make up spells on the fly, I would suggest reading the “Chaos Mage” book by Mongoose. I would disagree that the argument in and of itself is stupid. It is designed this way to leave it to the DM’s campaign style. There are many literary references to both styles and many people want to be able to define themselves if Psionics is nothing more than magic or if it is something entirely different. For example in the new Realms Players Guide – it specifically states that Psionics IS magic, but that comes from within each individual Psion rather than from the weave/shadow-weave. Thus, it is effected by all rules that apply to magic – with the exception that the Psion cannot be denied their magic on the whim of Mystra or Shar. Now personally I would say in this world then, that EITHER Psions or Sorcerers exists as a mechanic as they are both being defined as the same thing. For such a ruling, we would have to turn to an advanced rules set and find a way to combine the 2 classes into one concept that works as well as a revamp of the psionic system to allow for more “spell-like” flexibility. Now once we see the revised psionic rules, much of the psion may be fixed.  I have re-looked at the Monte list again, and I just find it too restrictive on an arbitrary basis. I don’t see a lot of logic behind the spell restrictions.Out of curiosity have you seen the Power Point System from AEG’s Magic?I don’t have Wheel of Time, so I have no reference there, but I personally am not a big fan of the AU spell mechanic. That’s just a personal note, but I find it to be a bit clunky. I will need to go back and re-read it but if I am remembering correctly off the top of my head, you have basically two tables – a spells known and a spells prepared?Where do the 1, 2 and 2a options above come from in the AU?The only way t have infinite variety is to base a free-form magic system off of the flavor quote:“Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories – just raw power that they direct at will.”This as I mentioned before has been attempted b Mongoose’s Chaos Mage.As for flavor sorcerers – I obviously agree. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I may take a shot at the Shadow sorcerer. The Psion sorcerer is already covered pretty well.</blockquote>

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