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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1343138" data-attributes="member: 2167">Nightfall ---> As I posted on the other thread... Need more detail about a SL Sorcerer. You havent really told me much of anything about why they are different or better, other than a one sentence fluff statement that excuses why they are so like Wizards. Need a bit more info.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> Wippit ---> This is a great idea!  However, I think you over-estimated the number of spells. I just went through the book and this is the list of Sor/Wiz spells with a Material Component or Arcane Focus over 1gp.Banned Wiz Spells1st: Identify2nd: Arcane Lock, Continual Flame, Leomund’s Trap, Magic Mouth3rd: Illusory Script, Nondetection, Sepia Snake Sigil4th: Animate Dead, Fire Trap, Scrying, Stoneskin5th: False Vision, Magic Jar, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Sleep6th: Analyze Dweomer, Circle of Death, Contingency, Create Undead, Legend Lore, Repulsion, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Persuasion, True Seeing, Undeath to Death, Wall of Iron7th: Drawmij’s Instant Summons, Forcecage, Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen’s Sword, Project Image, Scrying (Greater), Simulacrum, Symbol of Stunning, Symbol of Weakness, Vision8th: Binding, Clone, Protection from Spells, Symbol of Death, Symbol of Insanity, Sympathy, Temporal Stasis, Trap the Soul9th: Astral Projection, Refuge, Shapechange, Teleportation CircleAny other suggestions?In fact I am toying with some material that will only allow a sorcerer to pick from a very limited number of Themed spell lists: (ie. Fire Sorcerer, Gypsy Sorcerer, Infiltrator Sorcerer, Portation Sorcerer, etc.)Number of known spells isnt so much of an issue. Currently I am toying with giving them a very small bonus based on Intelligence, granting them the same bonuses to Known Spells that high Intelligence would normally grant a Wizard in cast spells.  Thus an 18 Intelligence would grant 1 bonus 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spell. I do like some of the heritage ideas. I am currently looking at something similar as an option, a mix of things presented in the Quintessential Sorcerer and in Forgotten Hereos - Sorcerer.  In general it grants a bonus spell per spell level (set spells related to the heritage - some can be outside wizard list like a Bard does) so that a Sorcerer is forced into some kind of powers relating to its sorce of magic.  The bonus spell however is offset with banned spell designators or entire types of spells.Example: A Celestial heritage grants Domain spells from the Good domain (no domain power though). The return restriction is that they can never know nor even use an item that duplicates an Evil Descriptor or a Spell that appears on the Evil Domain list.  Further they cannot take any prestige class or template that in any way involves a heritage other than Celestial (ie: No dragon PrC's, no Fiendish templates, etc.).{Soapbox/Rant Warning}As for the suggestion of taking a line of feats to acquire this or that... If making a player take a specific stream of feats a requirement just to make a class "palatable" is the solution, IMHO that is almost as broken as the "unpalatable" class.  By doing this, you take away any form of flexibility, any ability to ever attain a PrC, and most importantly you take away the Primary foundation stone that was supposed to be behind 3E generation - free choice. Personally - and I am not trying to flame here - I think that saying "take feats" is not the answer to fixing the class.  People said the same thing about the Ranger and look what it needed for an overhaul.  /deep breath...{Off Soapbox/Rant}Again - all comments are welcome - even the ones telling me it isnt broken (assuming there are good arguments which most have) as it makes me think and rething the concepts and ideas.Thanks!</blockquote>

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