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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1352766" data-attributes="member: 2167">Had not seen this post in the past. Thanks for posting the link. I read it over and it seems we have some of the same ideas – though we have a difference in view on what the sorcerer is. I will address some of those in answering your points below.  As far as spell-like abilities as the source of spells – I think this has been greatly accepted by the few posting here.  When was the last time you saw a Dragon or a Demon or an Angel casting a spell by uttering incantations and waving its claws around even though they “cast as a sorcerer”? Form my interpretation of the rules this is an unnecessary use of verbiage.  Spell Focus can apply just as much to a Spell-Like Ability as to a Spell.  Keep in mind that as per the rules, a Spell-Like Ability is a still a Spell, it is just “cast” differently.  Thanks for the compliment. As I have stated I am seeking to make a well balanced and easily accepted version of the sorcerer that truly exemplifies the fantastic flavor of the fluff.As for the levels – it is easier to see in a table, but I hate trying to format them on the boards. It is in this piece of text…“Sorcerer Ability: A sorcerer is only a defined term in that sorcerers are known to be arcane casters who derive their innate magic ability from some ancient magical bloodline. Individual sorcerers can cover quite a number of concepts such as hedge wizards, fortune hunters, opportunists, charlatans, alchemists, demonologists, planar travelers, street wizards, investigators, oracles and so many other concepts. The varied abilities required by each different bloodline and concept are developed by the individual over time and reflect the sorcerer’s dealings with those that help them learn their specific craft. No two sorcerers should ever be exactly the same in their skills and the only difference should not just be their spell-like abilities known. “Sorcerer Abilities” are gained as shown in the progression table. At each level that sorcerer abilities are gained (1st, 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th), the sorcerer chooses one option from the list below (Options). Note that some of these abilities have prerequisites that are required to attain the ability.”This is based on the Balance Comparison done earlier in the thread (Post #29). The summation of which is thus:“The average number of class abilities (not counting Sorcerer):Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations)Thus the lowest average of class abilities falls to those that are Pure Casters – thus saying that these casters rely primarily on their Spells. Following that line of thought, the Sorcerer has more spells than any other caster so it should have less average class abilities.Thus, I am thinking of letting the Sorcerer gain 10 such class abilities at: Heritage, Sorcerer Ability & Spells at 1st, and then a Sorcerer Ability at 1st, 2nd, 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th. This is 2 abilities lower than the average 12 class abilities for other spellcasters and keeps a steady progression rhythm on the table.” I don’t see why not. This would of course be up to the DM if they wish to change the rules. Personally, I would choose to leave this as the weakness of the Sorcerer. Part of the awe and power of monsters should e retained as is. However – any monster that says they cast spells as a Sorcerer would be effected by this just “as a Sorcerer”, but their own innate spell-like abilities would not. It is a boon of their species to use those spell-like abilities without thematics.  Here I would have to disagree. Sorcerers (at least in my version) still use arcane magic. Even though they are used as spell-like abilities and thus internal – the magic they harness and turn into spell-effects is still arcane in nature and they still draw their “abilities” from a spell list. Granted in my version this will be a reduced spell list – but an arcane spell list none-the-less. This allows them to use arcane magical items.  As for Use Magic Device… per the SRD“You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.”In my opinion this is too broad and too powerful for the sorcerer. They can already use the items relating to their own race, own alignment, own class abilities and own spell list. Why should they be allowed to use any item? Just because a sorcerer has innate magical ability does not mean that their magical ability is amorphous in nature. A good Human sorcerer should not be able to freely use an evil Orcish magic item – which is exactly what the skill allows.  From the sorcerer description:“Since Sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that Wizards go through, they don’t have the background of arcane knowledge that most Wizard’s have. However they have more time to learn to fighting skills.”So, a few points on this.The core sorcerer grants Simple Weapons which is a pretty broad group of fighting styles, which means the sorcerer has spent at least minimal time studying melee craft.  Anyone who has ever had any combat training knows that the first thing you ever learn is the defensive abilities. In martial arts, its how to take a hit and a fall. In the military or law enforcement the first thing you learn is how to properly wear a flak jacket. In fencing or kendo the first thing you ever learn is how to properly wear the body armor.  If you do something enough, you become proficient.  Thus if the sorcerer has had even the most basic of melee training, they know the basics of defense. In response to your argument, without proficiency you cannot still effectively wear armor without penalty.  Per the SRD:“A character who is wearing armor with which she is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride.”In the cases you mention, this is simply a loophole that Padded and Leather Armor have no armor check penalty.  We do not want to design a class that bases itself on loopholes in the system. With that said, to be purely realistic about it, Leather Armor is defined as a form of leather platemail (hard leather plates over a softer underarmor).  In the real world this is most closely similar to fencing armor or flack jackets.”The breastplate and shoulder protectors of this armor are made of leather that has been stiffened by boiling in oil. The rest of the armor is made of softer and more flexible leather.”A chain shirt is defined as a shirt that “protects your torso while leaving your limbs free and mobile. It includes a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows.”Now in comparison, as someone who has personally worn armor of various types: platemail, chain, fencing armor, kendo armor, leather jerkins, and flack jackets (and I even own a chain shirt), the chain shirt is actually much easier to wear than any form of plate including fencing armor. Leather armor as it is described would require more proficiency in its use than a chain shirt. With the leather armor you have to learn to properly place the plates, strap them down and buckle them in place in just such a way as to provide the flexibility they are supposed to provide – do it wrong and the armor becomes less effective. A chain shirt on the other hand is like putting on 2 pullovers. Put on a t-shirt and then a sweater.  Chain shirt is the same thing. Pull on the quilted vest, then the chain shirt. Bounce your shoulders once or twice to make sure its settled in place … and you’re done.In game terms, if you can wear padded armor you can wear a chain shirt.Actually on this you are correct – good catch. After going back and reading the sorcerer and bard section of the Magic Chapter again, all they need is the standard 8 hours of sleep and 15 minutes of concentration (ie meditation). Also to restrict abuse of feats, racial abilities, spells and magical items – any spell used in the last 8 hours is considered as counting against the sorcerer’s daily limit.  I will edit this change.</blockquote>

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