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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1364575" data-attributes="member: 2167">Well to answer that question you should really go back and read earlier Posts in this thread.  However to summarize and recap the balance arguments…PURE CASTER COMPARISONHDd8 = Cleric, Druidd4 = Core Sorcerer, WizardAlt.Sorcerer = d6Only fair to bring them to a median between Wizard and Cleric/Druid since the sorcerer has “more time to learn to fighting skills”.BABCleric = AverageDruid = AverageCore Sorcerer = PoorWizard = PoorAlt.Sorcerer = PoorThe only classes to gain poor BAB’s are the Wizard and Sorcerer, not even ALL arcane casters, as Bards gain an Average BAB. However, the argument is made that the “Reason” that the Wizard has a Poor BAB is that they spend so much time studying that they have no time to learn melee skills. The Sorcerer on the other hand specifically stated otherwise:“Since Sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that Wizards go through, they don’t have the background of arcane knowledge that most Wizard’s have. However they have more time to learn to fighting skills.”Also, why are clerics, men of faith and piety better trained in Warcraft when their magic leans more away from warcraft, when arcane magic is lent More toward warcraft?However for balance’s sake, since they are a Pure Arcane caster, and arcane spells are more powerful than Divine and because we feel the sorcerer relies on their magic more than might, we have retained the Poor BAB.SAVES:1 Good = Core Sorcerer, Wizard2 Good = Cleric, DruidAlt.Sorcerer = 1 GoodEven though Clerics and Druids BOTH gain better saves, we retain the Will Good saves for the sorcerer since there really is no argument that they should have a better Reflex or Fortitude.CLASS SKILLSCleric = 10 skills (plus any domain skills acquired from domain choice)Druid = 12 skillsCore Sorcerer = 6 skillsWizard = 15 skillsAlt.Sorcerer = 8 skills (9 or 10 with choice of heredity)Better than the Core Sorcerer but still at the bottom rung of class skills – along with the Cleric.SKILL POINTS2+INT = Cleric, Wizard4+INT = DruidAlt.Sorcerer = 4+INTBrings the Sorcerer to the same skill points per level as the Druid due to the fact they are supposed to be a self taught class strong in the use of their skills to augment their limited spell selection.WEAPON & ARMOR PROFICIENCYCleric = All Simple Weapons; All (Light, Medium, Heavy) Armor and ShieldsDruid = 8 Simple Weapons, 1 Martial Weapon and all Natural Attacks; Light and Medium Armor and Shields (non-Metal)Wizard: 5 Simple Weapons; No Armor or ShieldsAlt.Sorcerer = Simple Weapons; Light ArmorSince sorcerers “have more time to learn to fighting skills” they should reflect it. They don’t get a better BAB, they get an increased from d4 to d6 HD but are trained in combat skills. The core sorcerer grants Simple Weapons which is a pretty broad group of fighting styles, which means the sorcerer has spent at least minimal time studying melee craft. Anyone who has ever had any combat training knows that the first thing you ever learn is the defensive abilities. In martial arts, its how to take a hit and a fall. In the military or law enforcement the first thing you learn is how to properly wear a flak jacket. In fencing or kendo the first thing you ever learn is how to properly wear the body armor. If you do something enough, you become proficient. Thus if the sorcerer has had even the most basic of melee training, they know the basics of defense.  However, technically as a loop-hole in the rules a Sorcerer (or Wizard) may wear Padded or Leather Armor already with very little penalty as it has no armor check penalty and only 5% or 10% arcane failure.  However since the Alt.Sorcerer uses Spell-Like abilities – there is no Arcane Failure applied.Also… With that said, to be purely realistic about it, Leather Armor is defined as a form of leather platemail (hard leather plates over a softer underarmor). In the real world this is most closely similar to fencing armor or flack jackets.”The breastplate and shoulder protectors of this armor are made of leather that has been stiffened by boiling in oil. The rest of the armor is made of softer and more flexible leather.”A chain shirt is defined as a shirt that “protects your torso while leaving your limbs free and mobile. It includes a layer of quilted fabric worn underneath to prevent chafing and to cushion the impact of blows.”Now in comparison, as someone who has personally worn armor of various types: platemail, chain, fencing armor, kendo armor, leather jerkins, and flack jackets (and I even own a chain shirt), the chain shirt is actually much easier to wear than any form of plate including fencing armor. Leather armor as it is described would require more proficiency in its use than a chain shirt. With the leather armor you have to learn to properly place the plates, strap them down and buckle them in place in just such a way as to provide the flexibility they are supposed to provide – do it wrong and the armor becomes less effective. A chain shirt on the other hand is like putting on 2 pullovers. Put on a t-shirt and then a sweater. Chain shirt is the same thing. Pull on the quilted vest, then the chain shirt. Bounce your shoulders once or twice to make sure its settled in place … and you’re done.In game terms, if you can wear padded armor you can wear a chain shirt.CLASS ABILITIES(Class Abilities {Special column} but counts Spells as a single Class Ability. Counts iterations of an ability as separate abilities where Iterations are such things as stacking Sneak Attacks. Does not count weapon and armor proficiency feats.)Cleric = 5 abilities (including spontaneous swapping)Druid = 25 abilities (including spontaneous swapping; 17 without iterations)Core Sorcerer = 2 abilitiesWizard = 7 abilitiesAlt.Sorcerer = 10 abilitesThe average number of class abilities (not counting the core Sorcerer which is the weakest in class abilities of ALL classes):Pure Casters (Cleric, Druid, Wizard) = 12 abilities (10 w/o iterations). The Alt.Sorcerer brings this UP to the average w/o iterations, below average with iterations.SPELLSClass………Ave. Maximum Spells Per Day…|…Ave Spells Known…|…PreparationCleric………………….5.6/SL…………………….22 / SL……………….Prepared / No FailDruid………………….4.7/SL……………………..17 / SL……………….Prepared / No FailCore Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………….4 / SL…………………Unprepared / FailWizard………………...4/SL……………………….37 / SL……………….Prepared / FailSpecialist Wizard……..5/SL………………………..***………………….. Prepared / Fail*** As Wizard minus restricted School(s) otherwise still unlimited arcana.Alt.Sorcerer…………6/SL……………………4.6 / SL…………Unprepared / No FailOverall, I think the Sorcerer still remains fairly balanced. There is little change in its magic and the few changes could be the reason the class still remains on the low end of the food chain of all of the other class mechanic structures such as skills, skill points, HD, combat, etc.NON PURE CASTER COMPARISONHDd12 = Barbariand10 = Fighter, Paladind8 = Monk, Rangerd6 = Bard, RogueAlt.Sorcerer = d6Still at the bottom tier of HD of those that “have more time to learn to fighting skills”.BABGood= Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, RangerAverage = Bard, Monk, RogueAlt.Sorcerer = PoorWorse than any Non-Pure Caster especially for those that “have more time to learn to fighting skills”.SAVES1 Good = Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Rogue 2 Good = Bard, Ranger3 Good = MonkAlt.Sorcerer = 1 GoodBottom rung of saves.CLASS SKILLSBarbarian = 9 skillsBard = 35 skillsFighter = 7 skillsMonk = 18 skillsPaladin = 10 skillsRanger = 19 skillsRogue = 29 skillsAlt.Sorcerer = 8 skills (9 or 10 with choice of heredity)The sorcerer gains the worst skill selection of any class except the fighter and possibly a tie with the Barbarian and Paladin.SKILL POINTS2+INT = Fighter, Paladin4+INT = Barbarian, Monk6+INT = Bard, Ranger8+INT = RogueAlt.Sorcerer = 4+INTThe average skill points are 4.6+INT so it is only fair to bring the Sorcerer to the average skill points per level due to the fact they are supposed to be a self taught class strong in the use of their skills to augment their limited spell selection.WEAPON & ARMOR PROFICIENCYBarbarian = All Simple & Martial Weapons; Light and Medium Armor and ShieldsBard = All Simple Weapons & 6 Martial Weapons; Light Armor and ShieldsFighter = All Simple & Martial Weapons; All (Light, Medium, Heavy) Armor and Shields (inc. Tower)Monk = 6 Simple Weapons, 1 Martial Weapon, 5 Exotic Weapons; No Armor or ShieldsPaladin = All Simple & Martial Weapons; All (Light, Medium, Heavy) Armor and ShieldsRanger = All Simple & Martial Weapons; Light Armor and ShieldsRogue = All Simple Weapons, 3 Martial Weapons, 1 Exotic Weapon; Light ArmorAlt.Sorcerer = Simple Weapons; Light ArmorStill easily at the low end of the food chain on weapons and armor. See the above argument on Armor.CLASS ABILITIES(Class Abilities {Special column} but counts Spells as a single Class Ability. Counts iterations of an ability as separate abilities where Iterations are such things as stacking Sneak Attacks. Does not count weapon and armor proficiencies.)Barbarian = 24 abilities (9 without iterations)Bard = 15 abilities (12 without iterations)Fighter = 11 abilitiesMonk = 33 abilities (includes AC increase and speed; 25 without iterations)Paladin = 19 abilities (11 without iterations)Ranger = 18 abilitiesRogue = 24 abilities (10 without iterations)Alt.Sorcerer = 10 abilitesThe average number of class abilities for non-pure casters:Pure Melee (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue) = 23 abilities (13 w/o iterations)Hybrid-Caster (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) = 17 abilities (13 w/o iterations)The Alt.Sorcerer falls below both averages.When taking the overall comparisons, I feel the Sorcerer is actually much more balanced now than the core class which was so overmatched by all of the other classes as to be silly. The new sorcerer has more flavor, flair, flexibility and overall usefulness and becomes much more closely balanced to all of the other classes.</blockquote>

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