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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Knight_Errant" data-source="post: 1372855" data-attributes="member: 6995">On Skills:This topic seems to have come under fire recently (again). While I admit that WotC sometimes mystifies me with their choices of class skills; I feel it is important to discuss a few points raised by Khaalis, Son, and others here. So, let me begin by examining the list of skills Khaalis has compiled for (my favorite) the latest generic incarnation of the class:These all seem to make sense to me. I really can’t find anything to object to. As for Son’s objection to sorcerer’s getting Diplomacy, I am afraid I agree with Khaalis’ argument. I see no reason why they should not get it as a class skill when clerics do. Yes, I realize clerics use charisma as a secondary stat and that only seems to strengthen my feeling; especially considering sorcerers have no secondary attribute of importance. While there could be some argument made that clerics are better suited to the role of diplomat (one which I might not argue with) there are plenty of instances where a cleric of a specific deity is going to have neither the desire nor the conviction to take this skill (such as a cleric of rage or some such) in which case he will never utilize one of his granted skill slots. Whereas the argument can be made that most sorcerers could find a use for diplomacy more frequently than not.This leads us to the Knowledge: Arcana question. This is, IMO, a tricky situation to resolve. I can see both sides of this argument. However, I do want to clarify a statement Son made earlier:While the skill may help to round out the class I’m not sure I follow your logic here. Is it possible that the knowledge (arcana) is locked “inside the body” of a sorcerer? I suppose, however, I will point out something from the description of knowledge skills in the PHB:These two entries suggest to me that knowledge is not something that you can unlock inside your body if you concentrate really, really hard on it. You either know it or you don’t. Now, herein lies my dilemma: both arguments work on some level. It is possible for the sorcerer to simply “know” certain things about arcane energy (they are inherently magical afterall) yet they do not study magic as a wizard does, and as the skill entry for knowledge implies, this is a skill learned through study of some sort. However, this brings us to bards. Bards don’t technically learn anything in the same manner as a wizard would; most of their knowledge is acquired on the fly through their many experiences. Could the same argument be made for sorcerers? I think so. Does it always make sense? Not necessarily.The bottom line is that unless sorcerers need knowledge: arcana for any of their class abilities I could rationalize them not having access to this skill. If the only reason for granting it to them is so that they can qualify for PrC’s; I won’t be convinced that it must be included.Does this limit the sorcerer from the start? I suppose that depends on how you look at limitation. IMO, you cannot make choices for a core class’ skill selection based on what individual players might choose to do several levels later. I don’t want to get too heavily into this debate because for one it will take as too far from topic and secondly my own thoughts on PrC’s may not be in line with the majority. I am willing to discuss the topic on the side however.This leads me to the last topic of skill discussion for now. Here is another statement from Son: I’m not entirely sure how I feel about the spell-trigger concept yet. While I am not completely comfortable with sorcerers being able to pick up any spell-trigger item and use it; I am leery of changing magic item rules to suit or restrict a class. I think that I tend to agree with your last statement here Son, Use Magic Device does seem to fit sorcerers; more so than Knowledge: Arcana IMO. I would think that this skill would be of more practical use to the class than any knowledge skill. Add to this idea that it is another charisma based skill and you start to get a list that is more in line with the other core classes skill lists; that is to say that they frequently have several skills that draw from their primary attribute rather than a few.Also, there should probably be some stipulation that allows the sorcerer to only use magic device on arcane items rather than any magic item he may encounter.Finally, to reply to what Buttercup stated:Keep in mind that the Cleric does get to choose additional skills based on their domains. I think that can be used as the basis for Khaalis argument here. I do not agree with the option of giving the sorcerer a bonus (+2 I believe) to any one skill of choice. That is a feat as it stands now and should not be considered a skill choice. So, what I feel makes for a good skill list (after some thought) is listed below:CLASS SKILLSThe class skills of the Sorcerer are: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device.Skill Points for 1st Level: (4+INT modifier) x4Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+INT modifierThis leads me to the spell per day table discussion. Son wrote:Let me first say that I’m not against sorcerers getting to know a few more spells per level. They are extremely sparse IMO. However, I’m not sure that this is the solution. You did say that you have playtested this and I would like to see the results of it sometime. My feeling is that this would (as Khaalis stated) make the sorcerer more powerful than the wizard. Finally, I do not think that they even need this modification. Are they unbalanced as they’re written? Of course. Do they need some improvement? Definitely. Is this the best solution? I am not sure of that. I admit that I am curious how this plays out.For the current build Khaalis is working on, I think this suffices:Keeping the current table of spells known seems to work IMO. I don’t think that the sorcerer needs to have a terribly inflated table of known spells.Wrapping it all upLet me say again that I think this thread is continuing to be productive and definitely entertaining. I think that the next step should be to create a sorcerer that fits the Core Rules model. This would include: a fixed skill list (perhaps with one skill choice of the player, aka Cleric Domains), a set number of known spells, a set number of spells per day (each of which could be influenced by other factors such as attributes or options), fixed class abilities gained at specific levels, hit dice, weapon & armor choices, saves, and base attack.I may attempt to write something along those lines in the next several hours if for no other reason than to illustrate my point perhaps more succinctly than I can explain it. At any rate, keep the discussion going, I think we are actually getting somewhere.</blockquote>

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