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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sonofapreacherman" data-source="post: 1373632" data-attributes="member: 2315">Knight_ Errant and Buttercup.I think we can safely assume that no flame war is forthcoming. That said, I am not without a rebuttal.----I actually did base my arguement on game mechanics. You just failed to quote that part of it.Here it is again, now in entirety."Virtually every other spellcasting class has the potential to cast every spell on their list. What they aren't casting now, they are studying for later. That foreknowledge is what allows them to spell trigger magic items based on spells from their respective lists. In the case of clerics, druids, and wizards, the groundwork for "all" spells has already been laid. That foreknowledge "must" exist on a conceptual game design level, because otherwise every heroic spellcasting class would be in school more often than they would be adventuring. The sorcerer cannot equal that potential, possessing no foreknowledge at all."Not all classes hit a spell ceiling (as the sorcerer does), yet another point that you have not addressed.Not after 20th level. Hence the ceiling. And definitely not 8th and 9th level spells. Moreover, even with swapping, the sorcerer gains no learned foreknowledge of all other spells.That's interesting, because I never made that statement. Go back and check if you like. You have put words in my mouth yet again. All I did was shed some light on a piece of information that might cast the flavor text into doubt, which, not surprisingly, you have chosen to ignore. For anybody else, who is not married to the flavor text, such information might at least cause them to question it.I never ignored anything. I am, perhaps, more aware of what often gets overlooked in a "deadline" based editing process. Moreover, I am attempting to define the specific purpose and intent of the sorcerer, but through game mechanics *first* and flavor text *second* (especially considering what I heard about the sorcerer flavor text being written for an eariler build of the sorcerer than what is printed). Is flavor text important? Of course it is. In case you haven't noticed, I have also used the flavor text as a guide (but to a point). One which is clearly more selective than your complete acceptance of the text.Not if the point of this thread is to create a logical "niche" for the sorcerer. Those other areas of knowledge "define" other classes far more effectively than the sorcerer. In fact, they do nothing to define the intuitive magic of sorcerers.I find your opinion here flawed in the extreme. It is human nature to be curious about ourselves. That's not flavor text. That's common perception. Knowledge (arcana) makes it possible for the sorcerer to be curious about their magical origins. It makes perfect sense that a sorcerer might seek out the "learned" knowledge to do so.For somebody who keeps claiming that my views are just that, you have been guilty of basing your arguments on arbitrary opinions far more often than me.I suspected you would, even in light of the fact that there are already so few prestige classes specifically made for sorcerers, you would ignore that and plow forward with sorcerer flavor text in hand.Not to be offensive, but you have actually followed very little except your own vision.I have done nothing of the sort. My primary reasons for giving sorcerers class access to Knowledge (arcana) have "already" been stated. Prestige class access only shores up my argument.You are still laboring on the premise that I said something which I did not (see "putting-words-in-my-mouth" above).Because, once again, if those other spellcasting classes can spell trigger any spell from their list, that usually offers enough options for them. For a sorcerer, who can only spell trigger from their spells known, the incentive to learn Use Magic Device is suddenly much greater. Supply and demand. And yes, also because the sorcerer is naturally inclined towards magical intuition, as per the growing niche of what it means to be a sorcerer.Oh! I know the answer to this one! It's because the sorcerer is "special". It's because the sorcerer deserves to break established mechanics of spellcasting because their flavor text does not match their abilities!(Sorry, that is the extent of my sarcasm.) <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Every other spellcaster has to choose from the levels of spells they are given. You want to let your sorcerer choose lower level spells instead of the highest level spells available to them? Fine. Let them. But there are game mechanics already in place for that. More specifically, it's called "letting them".Then you weren't playtesting the wizard at even their basic capacity. The automatic Scribe Scroll feat alone secures their supremacy in battle, on top which, the wizard still has their spells per day. The only cost to the wizard for this is gold and marginal XP. The balance that is created by giving sorcerers higher level spells at the same times as wizards, however, is lost the moment any wizard takes Craft Wand at 5th level with their first bonus metamagic feat.Whether you are talking about class ability equalization, or the sorcerer delay in spell level acquisition, you are still taking about balance. What is being discussed are the various ways to achieve that balance.*Knight_Errant, you may be interested in this next bit, as it resulted from my playtesting of a sorcerer who gains higher level spells at the same time as wizards.Let the sorcerer spontaneously cast the same spell over and over again at the wizard. The basic utility of any properly play-tested wizard will have a host of spell defenses to negate the (count them) 1 spell that a sorcerer would know at the same level as the wizard. Spell repetition means nothing if you only know one trick. Giving sorcerers access to higher-level spells at the same time as wizards unbalances nothing.And herein lies the fundamental thrust of your sorcerer build. You seem to think that MORE sorcerer abilities is the way to balance the class and give them a defining niche. I am here to say that personality is for the player to provide and that sorcerers already have tons of abilities (better known as "spells"). Any abilities the sorcerer receives should only govern how those spells are handled. The rest is up to each individual.</blockquote>

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