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<blockquote data-quote="irdeggman" data-source="post: 5150718" data-attributes="member: 16285">You are giving up other spells to gain the &quot;utility&quot; spells.Higher level damage spells have a much greater bang for the buck and there are more of them.Low level spells tend to be of more utility use than damage.&nbsp; And saving throws tend to not matter with utility spells whiile they do with damage ones.&nbsp;so you will trade in one of your 4 3rd level spells known (instead of dispel magic, fireball, lightning bolt, haste, fly, etc. in order to get a &quot;better&quot; silent image.No argument on Shapechange it is one of the &quot;manadatory&quot; spells to learn as quickly as possible for too many reasons. But it is a 9th level spell and a sorcerer would have to be 18th level to learn it. How long should someone wait for general utility spells that could be gotten much, much earlier.&nbsp;yes and then you must choose which 2nd level spell not to know. Not as many offensive second level spells, but a lot of &quot;buffs&quot; start showing up then as well as invisibility.&nbsp; Won't save you from falling unless you are falling a relatively long distance. Feather fall is an immediate action spell - and the rules on scrolls is that it takes as long to cast as the normal spell. So it is potentially much more useful - but better to actually &quot;know&quot; than to use as a scroll since you would have to have the scroll already out in order to get the immediate action benefit for casting.&nbsp; a 7th and 9th level spell (you won't learn both and would have to be 14th level to learn limited wish and couldn't swap it out until 18th level when you learn wish to replace it.Yup it sure is a bargain isn't it?For our game some actually would have been extremely useful - comprehend languages for instance. No spell is actually &quot;vital&quot; (including high level ones) if the DM is sharp and can roll with the circumstances.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="irdeggman, post: 5150718, member: 16285"] You are giving up other spells to gain the "utility" spells. Higher level damage spells have a much greater bang for the buck and there are more of them. Low level spells tend to be of more utility use than damage. And saving throws tend to not matter with utility spells whiile they do with damage ones. so you will trade in one of your 4 3rd level spells known (instead of dispel magic, fireball, lightning bolt, haste, fly, etc. in order to get a "better" silent image. No argument on Shapechange it is one of the "manadatory" spells to learn as quickly as possible for too many reasons. But it is a 9th level spell and a sorcerer would have to be 18th level to learn it. How long should someone wait for general utility spells that could be gotten much, much earlier. yes and then you must choose which 2nd level spell not to know. Not as many offensive second level spells, but a lot of "buffs" start showing up then as well as invisibility. Won't save you from falling unless you are falling a relatively long distance. Feather fall is an immediate action spell - and the rules on scrolls is that it takes as long to cast as the normal spell. So it is potentially much more useful - but better to actually "know" than to use as a scroll since you would have to have the scroll already out in order to get the immediate action benefit for casting. a 7th and 9th level spell (you won't learn both and would have to be 14th level to learn limited wish and couldn't swap it out until 18th level when you learn wish to replace it. Yup it sure is a bargain isn't it? For our game some actually would have been[I] extremely[/I] useful - comprehend languages for instance. No spell is actually "vital" (including high level ones) if the DM is sharp and can roll with the circumstances. [/QUOTE]

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